Thinking about inner thighs....late 14th century

[Andrew Young]

As I "wrap up" work on my very late 14th century
cuisses, I am now dealing with the notion of a backplate
to the cuisse.

Ive seen several artistic depictions with "hamstring plates"
showing completely enclosing cuisses, which suggest
they may have been used, though I know of no extant late
14th century or early 15th century cuisse (or any cuisses for
that matter) with fully/completely enclosing hamstring
plates. Greaves yes....cuisses no....as far as I can tell.

A curious find, below, shows half enclosing hamstring
plates. I must confess Ive never seen such tall hamstring
plates that reach around quite that far....almost suggesting
a fully enclosing hamstring plate if you didnt have a better
view as the pics below. Notice how the mail suddenly changes
direction....almost as if its connected to the hamstring plate to
form fully enclosing proection:

I suspect this fella to be about 1375-1390.

[img]http://www.tforum.info/forum/gallery_uploads/med_gallery_1649_44_80506.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.tforum.info/forum/gallery_uploads/med_gallery_1649_44_158461.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.tforum.info/forum/gallery_uploads/med_gallery_1649_44_201144.jpg[/img]


My question is thus: do we have any other illustrations
or sculptural artwork with a similar type of hamstring
plate? If so, please post or cite it.

....and I welcome your thoughts gents.

cheers
Drew

[Andrew Young]

Take a look at the areas Ive highlighted....I have changed
the hue and color of my monitor to make sure I wasnt
seeing things....it appears there may be a hint of rivets
along the back of the hamstring wrapper.....perhaps used
to attach the mail.

The fact that the "apparent" dots ---perhaps best described
as "notable blemishes"--are rather uniform in spacing is very
curious. Assuming its not an artistic goof, the mail on the
back of the thigh had to be attached in some fasion so rivets
make sense...stitched to a leather liner that was rivetted on,
like an aventail?

Notice the two directions the mail is going....in red arrows. This
seems to suggest a mail hamstring wrapper attached to the
hamstring plate itself:

[Konstantin the Red]

That direction of the mail linkrows would give good freedom to flex the leg forward. Edge-of-cuisse suspension strips can help the mail be held in the semi-closed position may help give smooth freedom to the mail fabric to do what's intended.

[Rod Walker]

Hi Drew, Tobias Capwells harness has hinged, fully enclosed cuisses. I believe his harness is c1450 English.

[Andrew Young]

I dont doubt fully enclosing hamstring plates existed on occassion.

Solid plates that encircle the thigh completely such as
greave, seem less common unless we are speaking of
the early 15th century, and even then I doubt they were
common place.

Ive earmarked a handful of illustrations with solid hamstring
plates, however those same images also other details that are
dubious so its hard to be sure as to the ratio between realistic
images and artistic license/whimsy (ignorance).

I suspect more of these hamstring plates wrapped around,
protecting about about 75% - 85% (rather than 100%) of the
thigh for a number of both anatomical and practical reaons.
In other words, rather like 270 degree to 330 degree coverage.

Could be wrong, but thats my sense thus far.

[Andrew Young]

That direction of the mail linkrows would give good freedom to flex the leg forward. Edge-of-cuisse suspension strips can help the mail be held in the semi-closed position may help give smooth freedom to the mail fabric to do what's intended.

Good point Konstantin!

[Andrew Young]

any more thoughts?

[Mac]

Andrew,
English effigies and brasses seem to show closed cuisses most of the time. The English liked to fight on foot. So do the SCAdians.
Mac

[Milan H]

id say the biggest reason you wont find many full wrap plates is because it makes riding more difficult and uncomfortable. For a foot soldier this would be less of an issue.

As for the mail closing the wrap plate, i have to agree that it seems very plausible. Considering that the rest of the armor has all its straps in place, in very high detail, and there are none on the wraps would suggest that the mail is part of the closure. My only issue is how you would close it up. I dont see lacing or buckles at all.

Further, if you look at the change in direction of the mail, you can see that the vertical rows protrude slightly compared to the horizontal, possibly its worn with an overlap?


The height of the wrap plate is a little higher than i would expect, but for a guy on foot, who rode occasionally, this arrangement would probably work out just fine. We cant tell what the top of the plate looks like, but i would suspect that the plate slopes around the buttocks up towards the front. This wouldnt get in the way, and would very effectively cover the side of the leg, while still alllowing riding.


Anyway thats my amaturish conclusion!

[Andrew Young]

Milan --You have a good point about riding....seems to me that segmented backplates allow for a little bit more grip when riding than a smooth plate.

Andrew,
English effigies and brasses seem to show closed cuisses most of the time. The English liked to fight on foot. So do the SCAdians.
Mac

I chuckle because Ive thought about the latter many times with this project.

I suppose what bugs me most is the "seem" part (or should I say 'seam').

In fact dozens of artistic illustrations suggest the appearence of a of totally encircling cuisses: english, german, polish...

And yet, curiously, on the sculptural side (stone effigies and wooden sculpture such as the image above) the breakdown showing at least some gapping (ie, 270 degrees to 330 degrees --Im approximating) seems to higher. I suspect the level of detailing is more accurate because the sculptor had more time or interest ($) in getting details closer to reality.

Then of course we are left with extant pieces in which solid plate closure (360 degrees), much less segmented plates does not seem to be terribly prevelant at all.

....for what its worth, for the cuisses Im working on now, I settled for about 300 degrees or so. ....rather similar to this image, although mine close up just a bit more:





Bearing in mind my hamstring plate wraps around about an inch or so more (and by appearences my cuisse comes back a bit more than St George here) so I feel Ive struck a good comprimse between a "enclosing cuisse" based on weighing in the apparent evidence...maybe Ill stick some mail up in there just to 'fill in the gaps.'

Thanks for the imput fellas.


Andrew