Installing overlapped rings on leather case: How?

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:38 am

I keep looking at this, and I can't figure out how to do it. It SEEMS simple, so I must be missing something. I can cut the rings with the overlap, then open them up and install them, but how do I get it closed? I am guessing that the springback will keep me from getting these fully closed. The overlapped part will get flattened, so can I just hammer it closed? Keep in mind that these will already be installed on the leather case, so it will not be an easy task to try to hammer these and not mark up the case. (The rings are 3/8" ID if that helps) If there is another way to do this so that I could flatten the overlap while they are OFF the case, but still be able to make them close once on, I would love to hear about it.

Thanks,
Cat

Uilleag · Post by **Uilleag** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:48 am

Those rings look as if they have been soldered in some manner. I have no idea how it was done, but that is what it looks like.

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:51 am

That's what I thought too, but did they do that? I didn't think they had that technology, so I dismissed it. That WOULD be the easy solution, though, wouldn't it....use non overlapped rings so I could over bend to get them closed, then hit it with the soldering gun. Can you blacken solder? The rings will be blackened, so the shiny solder might stick out like a sore thumb. I may have some Perma Blue around here somewhere...

Cat

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:51 am

BTW - WELCOME BACK!!! I am very glad to see you home safe!

Cat

Uilleag · Post by **Uilleag** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:54 am

Cat wrote:BTW - WELCOME BACK!!! I am very glad to see you home safe!

Cat

Thanks!

I can't speak to how it was done in the picture there, but the rings look soldered. See where they attach is more silver in color where the rest of the rings are dark? :shrugs:

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:57 am

Yes, it does look more like a glob of something rather than a flattened end.

I'm not familiar with soldering - will the whole ring get hot? I don't want to burn the leather......that stinks....

Cat

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:05 am

Cat, I'm going to bet those are solid rings that were threaded onto the leather strip, not opened and slipped onto the leather and then closed.

As you said, it's probably simple - and it's got to be a whole lot simpler to work the leather strip through the solid ring than to close the ring after working it around the leather.

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:17 am

Hey Cat, do you have "Purses in Pieces"? There's a purse in there with am integral hard decorated writing tablet case. I'd love to see you take a shot at that.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:20 am

I agree with Gavin. If you could see the inside, I'm almost certain you'd know exactly how it was done. My personal guess (and it's nothing more than a guess!) is a wet leather strip threaded through the side, rings, and side, and then anchored (couple of stitches?) and allowed to dry, so it would shrink up a bit and tighten.

iaenmor · Post by **iaenmor** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:29 am

I think Gavin and Maeryk have it right. I blew the picture up and you can see the strip of leather. Not sure how it is attached but a couple of discrete stiches would seem to work.

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:49 am

Good catch guys! I think I can modify the case and install a strip inside. It's probably gonna have to be glued in though. It should work ok since it will be glued up to the case body, and then a leather insert gets glued inside of that, so it should be ok. Well, the lid doesn't get an insert, but if the strip starts to come unglued at the ends, it should be pretty easy to re glue it.

Strongbow,
Thanks for your vote of confidence! I don't have that book YET. I will have it eventually, but I want to wait until I have cleared my massive backlog. (gotta love basement flooding - does wonders for productivity when your workshop is sopping wet) If I get that book now, my mind will certainly wonder and I need to be focused.

Thanks again everybody!
Cat

Roland Ansbacher · Post by **Roland Ansbacher** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:13 am

More then likely, the rings are butted and soldered. The large "bump" is a lot of excess solder. It's a little tricky, but it shouldn't be too hard to solder the rings and not burn the leather. If you're careful, you can make an almost invisible joint fairly easily.

The best bet is to use a low temperature solder, such as easy-flo or some such. Ask your local jewelry supply store for their lowest temp solder. You should be able to get one that flows at 250 degrees or so.

There are a couple of ways actually do it, but here is how I would approach it.

Slip the ring through the leather, but don't close it yet. Brush on just a bit of flux on the butted ends, then close it. Take the solder wire, flatten it on the anvil, and cut off a small chip, about 1/16 of an inch or so. Put a wooden dowel through the ring, placing a damp towel around the leather case to keep from scorching it. Carefully place the chip of solder where the rings meet. Use a propane torch and gently heat up the ring. Don't put the flame directly on the solder, as it will burn the flux or blow away the solder. You can also use a soldering iron to do this. When the solder begins to flow, it will only go where the flux has been applied. If you use too big a chip, or too musch flux, it will leave an unsightly bump.

You can also "tin" the butted ends by applying the solder to each of the open ends of the ring before you attach it to the case. That way, when you close the ring, the solder is already in place, and you don't have to fuss with the chip.

Good luck!

Sir Roland Ansbacher

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:25 pm

Gentlemen,
Step back and look at this for a moment.
There's no need to figure out how to solder rings in a leather case.
Real cases are not done that way.
Real cases have vertically oriented "tubes" worked into the leather it's self through which to suspensory cords pass.

It's easy to do:
Once your leather is sewn (damp) over your form, cut horizontal slots where you want the tubes to begin and end.
Thread a thing like a chop stick through the slots.
Push the leather in around the sticks to define the tubes.
Do your decorative tooling.
Let dry.
Cut the box open to remove your form.

I don't want to sound grouchy, but I just can't believe you're all trying to figure out how do a thing in an inauthentic, weak, and difficult way, when it's easy to do it right.

Mac

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:29 pm

Oh, and yes, this does presume that I think the case in the picture is a cheesy fake.

Mac

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:08 pm

I don't know if this case is fake or not. It seems to have a good bit on info on it as to who it was made for, who made it, and what it held (which was a book, and I believe they have the book also). The other cases I have made (based off of other historical finds) did have the "tubes" you mentioned.

I am going to assume this is authentic, and use rings. If I find out later that this is a fake, I will modify my design. (IF I make another one - which is not too likely as the design and gold leafing on this one was a pain in the butt.)

Cat

Uilleag · Post by **Uilleag** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:29 pm

Mac wrote:I don't want to sound grouchy, but I just can't believe you're all trying to figure out how do a thing in an inauthentic, weak, and difficult way, when it's easy to do it right.

Mac

It would be much easier to do, if we knew how to do it. It would appear that those of us commenting before you, were observing a picture that didn't really make that much sense to us and giving opinions on what it looked like was done, and then how to do it.

I hate to sound grouchy, but I really dislike when people who know more than I treat me like an idiot, instead of just explaining the proper method.

BTW: This ain't armour, its apparently book binding? Perhaps authentic research or some other thread would have provided more knowledgable answers.

Cat, not mad at you, just mad about the situation.

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:46 pm

Well, I put it in this forum due to the fact that I just wanted to know how to get the rings closed. I figured there might be some kind of metal pounding trick to get the job done.

I know how to do the other type of suspension (the tubes), so I didn't need to ask about how it was done on other cases. If I end up doing research on the validity of this particular case, I will be sure to list it in the Historical Research forum.

And I don't think you sounded too grouchy.

I was a little put off by the tone a bit myself.

Cat

PS. Mac - we're not all "gentlemen".

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:01 pm

Mr. Wolf et al.,

I'm sorry. I don't think that you or any one else in this discussion are idiots.
I certainly didn't mean to to treat you like one.
Things sometimes read harsher than they sound.
If we had all bean talking face to face, I'm sure we would all be smiling.
Please forgive me,
Mac

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:04 pm

Mac, what has made you convinced it's a fake/not real one?

Just for curiosity's sake. are you saying all cases in the Middle ages were made one way, and one way only?

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:42 pm

I think is experiance. Mac found and easyer and less labor intensive way to make a better stronger. I think the thong the holds the soldered rings is stiched down with a small glovers needle. the rings appear to be soldered before assembly.

but then again I have little experiance compared to the rest of you.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:03 pm

Mearyk,
I would never say that anything was done one way, and one way only.

I will say that when an object is at variance with corpus of authenticatible objects it should be treated with suspicion and skepticism.

That said, I've clearly spoken too strongly, and hope to be allowed to retreat.

Mac

Roland Ansbacher · Post by **Roland Ansbacher** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:08 pm

Nothing like being slapped down by the master!

After posting, I downloaded the pic and zoomed in. Looking at the wear marks on the leather, it does appear that the rings are indeed threaded onto a thong, which was then stitched down to the inside. I retract my method of soldering the ring after looping it through the leather. The rest of the info about soldering the ring still works though. (Shoulda posted faster, or looked at the pic earlier...)

All that being said, I appreciate the post by Mac, though the tone was a bit... grouchy.

I agree that all of the extant pouches I have seen use the "tube" method, but I am far from an authority on the subject. Frankly, there aren't too many good sources on hard leather pouches. By "good" I mean recent, easy to come by, and in English, books or articles on the subject. I am pretty sure that Cat knows far more then me, heck, I am sure most people do. Every time I think I've seen it all, something new comes up.

Mac, is there anything other then the construction method being out of the norm that makes it a fake rather then an anomaly? (Oh, and apology accepted, no worries!)

Cat, I went to the British Museum images site, but I could only find the same picture and the little bit of info. Do you have any more on it?

Sir Roland

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:16 pm

I do, but should I post it here? I guess all the rest of the discussion is here, so I may as well. Maybe the almighty JT can move it???

Here's a couple more pics, and some info I have. The pics and info were sent to me by Karen Larsdatter.

[Box with lid] The box containing Stowe 955; the box is covered with leather, coloured green and gold, with floral decoration, and initials 'P' and 'M' [Pierre Sala and Marguerite Builloud] formed out of crossed compasses or staves.The rings on the edge of the box are intended for a chain to suspend the volume from a girdle
Image taken from Love Poems.
Originally published/produced in France; early 16th century.

Author: Sala, Pierre
Shelfmark/Page: Stowe 955, Box
Language: French and Spanish

Author:Pierre Sala
Title Petit Livre d'Amour
Origin France, Central (Paris and Lyon)
Date c. 1500
Language French and Spanish (f. 7v)
Script Pierre Sala's handwriting in gold on purple (f. 16v in mirror-script)
Artists Miniatures attributed to the Master of the Chronique scandaleuse (see Avril and Reynaud 1993); the portrait of Pierre Sala (f. 17) attributed to Jean PerrÃ©al. The Master of the Chronique scandaleuse reserved the face of Pierre Sala in his miniature on f. 6 for Jean PerrÃ©al who forgot to paint it.
Decoration 12 emblematical miniatures (ff. 6, 7, 8, 9, 9*, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17); on the page facing each miniature a quatrain inscribed on a placard, surmounted - except the first - with designs containing the letters M and P and a device which appears to be crossed compasses or staves.

Dimensions:130 x 95 (85 x 70)

Official foliation ff. i + 34 (+ 1 original parchment flyleaf before f. 1 and 1 after f. 17) Form Parchment codex
Binding Pre-1600. Purple velvet; original wooden carrying case covered with leather, coloured green and gold and carved with devices, among which are the letters P and M formed out of crossed compasses or staves; on the edges of the case are rings, intended for a chain to suspend the volume from the girdle.
Provenance Marguerite Builloud: at the beginning (ff. 1-4v) is an address in prose from the lover to his mistress, and at the end (f. 17) a portrait of the lover; on the back of this is written, 'Set de vray le portret de Pierre Sala mestre dotel de ches le roy avec des enimes quil avoit fet a sa mestresse qui estoit grand honcle a madame de Ressis laquelle est sortie de la mayson de Guillien en Quercy.' (f. 17v); the poems begin with 'Mon cueur veult estre en ceste Margueryte.' (f. 5v); throughout the letters M and P.
Marshal Junot, Duke of Abrantes: attached to the cover at the end is an extract from a sale-catalogue, which states that the manuscript was formerly in his possession (f. 35).
Richard Temple-Nugent-Brydges-Chandos-Grenville (b. 1776, d. 1839), 1st duke of Buckingham and Chandos, of Stowe House, near Buckingham: inscribed with the press-mark 'Appendix vol. I. Catal Mss. Stowe no. 26' (f. 18), corresponding to his catalogue (O'Conor 1818-1819); '26' also inscribed inside the carrying-case.
Richard Plantagenet Temple-Nugent-Brydges-Chandos-Grenville (b. 1797, d. 1861), 2nd duke of Buckingham and Chandos; sold in 1849 to Lord Ashburnham.
Bertram Ashburnham (b. 1797, d. 1878), 4th earl of Ashburnham, of Ashburnham Place, Sussex.
Bertram Ashburnham (b. 1840, d. 1913), 5th earl of Ashburnham: purchased by the British Museum from him together with 1084 other Stowe manuscripts in 1883.

Notes A transcription of the content has been added later on paper (ff. 18-34), probably by Richard Temple-Nugent-Brydges-Chandos-Grenville (b. 1776, d. 1839).

Select bibliography Charles O'Conor, Bibliotheca Ms. Stowensis: A Descriptive Catalogue of the Manuscripts in the Stowe Library, 2 vols (Buckingham: Seeley, 1818-1819), I, 57.

Catalogue of the Stowe Manuscripts in the British Museum, 2 vols (London: British Museum, 1895-1896), I, no. 955.

Grete Ring, A Century of French Painting 1400-1500 (London: Phaidon, 1949), no. 331, fig. 48.

Janet Backhouse, 'French Manuscript Illumination', in Renaissance Painting in Manuscripts: Treasures from the British Library, ed. by Thomas Kren (New York: Hudson Hill Press, 1983), 145-192 (no. 22 pp. 169-74).

FranÃ§ois Avril and Nicole Reynaud, Les manuscrits Ã peinture en France 1440-1520 (Paris: Flammarion, 1993), no. 208 [exhibition catalogue].

Janet Backhouse and Yves Giraud, Pierre Sala: Petit Livre d'Amour, Stowe MS 955, British Library, London, Kommentar, Commentaire, Commentary (Luzern: Faksimile Verlag, 1994).

Janet Backhouse, The Illuminated Page: Ten Centuries of Manuscript Painting in the British Library (London: British Library, 1997), no. 194.

Michael Camille, The Medieval Art of Love: Objects and Subjects of Desire (London: Laurence King, 1998), p. 110, pl. 96.

Pamela Porter, Courtly Love in Medieval Manuscript (London: British Library, 2003), pp. 10-11.

Treasures of the British Library, ed. by Nicolas Barker and others (London: British Library, 2005), p. 141.

Pics up in a sec...

Cat

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:26 pm

More pics...

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:33 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen,

As if it were not enough that I have offended you all by sounding like a snot; now it is looking more and more like I'm just plane wrong in addition!

I am so humiliated....

Mac

Aaron Schnatterly · Post by **Aaron Schnatterly** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:45 pm

Cat, having seen your past work, I'm looking forward to seeing this finished piece. Holy cow...

There have been a few references to the book Purses in Pieces mentioned. It has a number of these cases in it, along with a lot of other stuff. There are some other methods of housing/casing/protecting books in there as well... You definitely need it, but you'll lose a couple of days minimum just mentally drinking it up.

Mac - it happens, man, even to the best of us... there's ALWAYS that oddball gem of a piece. I mean... they never articulated the cuisse over as opposed to under the knee lames, did they? Or is there an exception or two? (rhetorical, not to start another discussion...)

Uilleag · Post by **Uilleag** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:10 pm

Mac wrote:Ladies and Gentlemen,

As if it were not enough that I have offended you all by sounding like a snot; now it is looking more and more like I'm just plane wrong in addition!

I am so humiliated....

Mac

Mac,

I know that we were having a private conversation reference this whole misunderstanding, but I wanted to re-iterate here, publicly, that its ok. I reacted strongly, because, one, that is the type of person I am, but secondly, I am a bit under the weather today, so may have a little less tolerance than normal.

We are human, and as such imperfect beings. I know that I make mistakes like this commonly and find myself feeling like an ass more often than not. You took a scholarly approach to an arguement. Information was presented to show contrary information, it happens. I am willing to let it go if you are. And please forgive my harsh response to your comments as well.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:36 pm

Mr. Wolf,

I was rude and wrong, and deserved to be smacked around a little.

No hard feelings here.

Mac

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:45 pm

what an interesting project. out of curiosity...

-is the bottom a seperate peice-or is it a fold over from the same piece as the body?

-is it hardened?

I'm really looking forward to seeing your reproduction of it.

Thanks,

Aaron

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:47 pm

Note that soldering dates back to at least 2000 years earlier than when the pictured piece was made.

As to how it was done look into "soldering coppers" or for some pieces the use of charcoal or the use of a blowpipe and a oil lamp or candle flame.

Thomas

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:52 pm

Armoured Air Bear wrote:what an interesting project. out of curiosity...

-is the bottom a seperate peice-or is it a fold over from the same piece as the body?

-is it hardened?

I'm really looking forward to seeing your reproduction of it.

Thanks,

Aaron

From looking at the photo, I'ma say:

1) Bottom is same as top, stitched over along the center. The "sleeve" part that the lid sits over is probably a second piece, stitched or just glued (or even just stuffed into) the bottom.

It's probably hardened, in that it was worked wet over a form, and then allowed to dry after the tooling was done. That imparts a pretty stiff quality to good leather, even without extra agents or heat applied. The shape, if creased right when being laid up, would hold pretty well, especially if leafed and laquered, as the sheen on that piece leads me to believe it was.