The Armour Archive

Folks,

Wasn't sure where to put this, so I figured Construction was a good start.

I understand armour. I understand weapons. I have never understood scabbards.

Now I know why. The scabbards that I have ever seen/handled were heavy, unwieldy and very much NOT what I think was used historically.

They always seem to be the afterthought. A blemish to the masterpiece contained inside.

Yesterday, Aaron Schnatterly helped me find religion! I saw the scabbard that he is working on for Bob Reed (chef de chambre) and it is OUTSTANDING!

Light, strong, elegant, graceful.

Bob's pride and joy del Tin is almost not worthy of the wrapping around it that Aaron has brought to life.

Scabbards are the new black, baby. I hope others jump on the bandwagon and bring these after thought accessories to the forefront.

I know for certain that my del Tin is going into his hands once funding is available. I have found the person to make my baby a snug new home.

mmmmmm....pics?

"Scabbards are the new black, baby."


Scabbards are black babys???

Just kidding..

Link
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=75084

My own, made by Greyson Brown, who just returned from a visit to Mr. Schnatterly's place:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... t=scabbard

Brian, thanks for your very kind words. It was fun to share and shed some light on this interesting, yet, as you said, oft-neglected craft. Hopefully, as things progress here, we can bring these back to light/life. It was funny to see your face display a bit of "huh? hey... HEY!!!" when you picked up that bare core... "You could inflict some DAMAGE with this thing..." They look dainty and perhaps flimsy, but...

There's a reason that Fiore shows the scabbard being used offensively.

Brian W. Rainey wrote:I know for certain that my del Tin is going into his hands once funding is available. I have found the person to make my baby a snug new home.

It would be an honor, brother!



Josh, Grey did a fine job on your piece. Did you, per chance, see his latest effort?

Yes, it's unfortunate, but most scabbards people wear today with their swords are horrid. Insults to the master craftsmen who made their living making them.

I am just as guilty of this as anyone. My personal scabbard that I made is, at best, crap, even though the core is made of thin 1/8" wood. The cover is horrible though. I need to make another one, but just can't find the time.

However, when you see a well-done scabbard, it's a true work of art. It's no wonder that scabbards would often cost more then the sword.

Corey D. Sullivan wrote:Yes, it's unfortunate, but most scabbards people wear today with their swords are horrid. Insults to the master craftsmen who made their living making them.

... someday, I hope to do a piece that those masters of their craft wouldn't have laughed at. THOSE were true artisans.

Brian W. Rainey wrote:Folks,

Wasn't sure where to put this, so I figured Construction was a good start.

I understand armour. I understand weapons. I have never understood scabbards.

Now I know why. The scabbards that I have ever seen/handled were heavy, unwieldy and very much NOT what I think was used historically.

They always seem to be the afterthought. A blemish to the masterpiece contained inside.

Yesterday, Aaron Schnatterly helped me find religion! I saw the scabbard that he is working on for Bob Reed (chef de chambre) and it is OUTSTANDING!

Light, strong, elegant, graceful.

Bob's pride and joy del Tin is almost not worthy of the wrapping around it that Aaron has brought to life.

Scabbards are the new black, baby. I hope others jump on the bandwagon and bring these after thought accessories to the forefront.

I know for certain that my del Tin is going into his hands once funding is available. I have found the person to make my baby a snug new home.

It was one of the weakest areas of my kit. I think it is some of the weakest areas of most reenactors kits, outside of a very few groups, like the Company of St. George, 1476, or St. Olas' Guild (these are the only places I have seen really top notch reproductions.

We were recently a part of a filming project for the Higgins, and one of the side comments we had from an informed observer was "where are all of your swords? You don't have many?", and one of my crew piped up "We almost all have swords - the scabbard and belt are the hard part". Basically, we had one truely presentable scabbard and belt in the group.

One of my more recent hobby-horses is that, you end up seeing reenactors (often portraying 'common soldiers', with swords that would at the least be found only in the hands of a wealthy knight, or a proper lord, and worse yet, the thing is put into a scabbard that is a horror show in comparison to a plain authentic scabbard.

Reenactors really need more swords available that are seen in the hands of common soldiers - good blades, with decent balance, but for god's sake, more hangers, messers, and arming swords with scale tangs, wood grips, horn grips even - not the bloody Comte de St. Pol's sword in the hands of an archer or a pikeman - it is painful to see. Especially, when the sword that is replicated, would have often had a very expensive scabbard, with silver-gilt fittings. Even a common soldiers sheath would possibly have decorative patterning to the leather - I recently sent Aaron an image of a guard at Christs tomb sculpture, in a German church, where the fellows messer scabbard is clearly seen to be patterned - God knows we have a number of extant knife sheaths with patterns tooled into them.

Also, more variety in carriage is needed. You see quite a variety in historical art, and regional variations, but about three ways of carrying ones sword in reenactment.

Fortunately, Aaron is working hard to bridge these gasps in what is seen historically, and what is produced today.

One of my more recent hobby-horses is that, you end up seeing reenactors (often portraying 'common soldiers', with swords that would at the least be found only in the hands of a wealthy knight, or a proper lord, and worse yet, the thing is put into a scabbard that is a horror show in comparison to a plain authentic scabbard.

Heheheh.. hmmmm.

*Mental note, never let Chef see my sword and scabbard.*


Seriously, it's a major sticking point with me. I don't have the necessary skills yet to make a convincing scabbard and suspension, and don't have the cash to commission one.

My sword isn't too bad though. It's just a slightly beat-up XIV with a plain cross, pommel and simple green leather grip. Nothing fancy.

Or is it too fancy for a "common soldier"?

Actually, what would be the ideal setup for a sword for a common soldier as far as scabbard and suspension go? I would really like to have a go at making my own, but most of the detailed images are of nobles.

chef de chambre wrote:Even a common soldiers sheath would possibly have decorative patterning to the leather - I recently sent Aaron an image of a guard at Christs tomb sculpture, in a German church, where the fellows messer scabbard is clearly seen to be patterned - God knows we have a number of extant knife sheaths with patterns tooled into them.

Yeah, you sure did, and don't think for a second that it's been forgotten. I do so love the "common soldier", and the messer.

chef de chambre wrote:Also, more variety in carriage is needed. You see quite a variety in historical art, and regional variations, but about three ways of carrying ones sword in reenactment.

Fortunately, Aaron is working hard to bridge these gaps in what is seen historically, and what is produced today.

... with a lot of great help (much of which is from chef and his wife), and that pool of info and a growing number of excellent contacts is going to pay off in spades. When I started here at Albion, we effectively had 4 suspension types to span our offerings. Now, I have notes, art, and (in a number of cases) sketches of a couple dozen more.

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:Josh, Grey did a fine job on your piece. Did you, per chance, see his latest effort?

I did, in fact, on his return trip. Very cool.

Corey D. Sullivan wrote:*Mental note, never let Chef see my sword and scabbard.*

... why not? We can be constructive. Seriously. You already said it's not what you want it to be... so what's the worst we could do? Say "uh... it's not what it should be."?

Corey D. Sullivan wrote:Seriously, it's a major sticking point with me. I don't have the necessary skills yet to make a convincing scabbard and suspension, and don't have the cash to commission one.

....


Actually, what would be the ideal setup for a sword for a common soldier as far as scabbard and suspension go? I would really like to have a go at making my own, but most of the detailed images are of nobles.

The XIV form in general spans a long time. Fittings may narrow it in time and/or region. Effigies and surviving pieces are often of nobles, true. Other extant art, however... Take a good look at pieces there, and you will see examples. You can give it a good, honest try. I'm not wholly unapproachable, either.

More pics are coming Aaron. Working on the Franco-Burgundians at the moment in collecting.

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:

Corey D. Sullivan wrote:*Mental note, never let Chef see my sword and scabbard.*

... why not? We can be constructive. Seriously. You already said it's not what you want it to be... so what's the worst we could do? Say "uh... it's not what it should be."?

I know, I was just joking. I'll see if I can dig up a few pics. Won't be pretty though...

The XIV form in general spans a long time. Fittings may narrow it in time and/or region. Effigies and surviving pieces are often of nobles, true. Other extant art, however... Take a good look at pieces there, and you will see examples. You can give it a good, honest try.

You're right of course. I'll look up some images and see if I can get an idea of what I'm shooting for. Mid-14th century is the period, which is why I picked an XIV. They were very popular a few generations before, so I figured it would fit.

I'm not wholly unapproachable, either.

Oh, you don't have to tell me twice. In fact, you're work has inspired me to attempt to improve my kit in as many ways as possible.

Anyhow, I won't clutter up this thread anymore then necessary, so I'll start a new one eventually.

-Cheers!

Okay, so now I'm curious as to what sort of damage that would cause to my billfold?

Jentien wrote:Okay, so now I'm curious as to what sort of damage that would cause to my billfold?

There are way too many variables to just toss out a figure. It'd be like asking "how much for the painting", not knowing if you're referring to a masterpiece painted by Rachel (my 3-year-old niece) or Raphael. I also have some contractual points to live by...

Grayson Brown also made one for my Albion Steward


Came out great!!!

Here is a terrible quandary!

My wife bought my my Albion Gaddhjalt as a surprise gift for my knighting. She had my best freind make a scabbard for it. The terrible thing for him was that the first person he would come to for help with the wood and leather work was the one person he could not tell about the project, Me!

He did his very best, but he is still ashamed of the outcome. It's not a great scabbard, it's slab sided and very heavy, but considering what he had to work with I think he did fine and I'm proud to wear it. Since he made it for me it has a special significance , so much so that I would feel terrible about making a new one to replace it!

While I was writing this I think I have found the solution and will ask him if he would like to make a new one as a joint project. Don't know why it hadn't occurred to me before. Better living through archiving.

-Justus

Justus, the Gaddhjalt is a kick-ass sword. It's awesome that your wife did that for you for that occasion. There have been a couple of times I had almost sent a PM to ask, as you've referred to "your sword" a few times in the past.

Should you go forward with that project, it would be awesome to see the results. Please post pics.

Will do!

When he brought it down on my forehead I thought to myself:

"I wonder if he knows how sharp that blade is?"

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/syrjustus/2518884871/" title="close by Justus Koshiol, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3149/2518884871_c209d441c1_o.jpg" width="259" height="263" alt="close"></a>

He did.

-Justus