First Gothic Harnisch in pictures

[Zetheros]

"Without exaggerating, I am Supremely Dissappointed with myself."

Usually I find that armor often looks like it's been through hell before lines are cleaned up and given a nice finish. Don't give up! You have a great basic shape down, and after a bit of finishing work, it'll look amazing.

[Aussie Yeoman]

Fear not, the grass is indeed made of old soft drink bottles and such.

I know it should look better when finished up, and maybe better again when I'm wearing it and moving around...but that doesn't stop me lamenting along the way.

D

[Aussie Yeoman]

I made some hinges today. Some will be for the lower canon, some for the greave. I think I will make a slightly different style for the cuisses:





I did a writeup of making the hinges here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=136470

Dave

[Aussie Yeoman]

Hinges can be a bit dreary to see a lot of, I think.

Tonight, I did some work refining my pattern for an enclosed Gothic rerebrace, after the fashion of that seen on the A21 harness in the Wallace collection.

I had templated a pattern, but had received Sound Advice to cut a template out of steel, a couple of inches longer than I had planned, and trim accordingly. As it turns out (of course) this was a Good Thing, as the extra length I addded turned out to be exactly right. I made this template from some .7mm steel I had ripped from the side of an oven before taking it to the metal recyclers. I just knew it would be useful for something.



I curled it up over-tight so that it would hold itself on at a reasonable tightness. Go through a range of movements, see where it pinches, where it can be extended. I found I couldn't bring my arm up or forward without the upper edge digging into my lateral and anterior deltoids. Instead of cutting the top edge lower, I flared the upper edge out...just a tiny bit, to the same angle as that seen in the transition from the deltoid to the humerus. You can *just* see it below, on the right. Doesn't look like much, but it relieved a great deal of pressure.



As it is, it comes under my arm to about 2.5 inches from the armpit, and a bit more than halfway up the deltoid on the outside. At the distal end, I trimmed a bit off the inside of the elbow to get a little more than 90 degrees comfortable bend.



The amount that I trimmed off the inside of the elbow, about 1/2 inch, I think I will add to the outside of the elbow.

Enclosed rerebraces, I have been told, must fit tightly. Here's why:

The tighter a rerebrace is, the closer the steel is to One's bones. The closer it is to One's bones, the closer each end of the rerebrace can get to the joints (shoulder and elbow) without hindering flexion/extension/rotation etcetera. Arms can hang comfortably by the sides, elbows can bend further, and the armour looks more slender and sexy.

I drilled and bolted the rerebrace in place, and found that with my arm flexed (as in bent, not posing like a bodybuilder), I find I can feel my brachial artery pulsating. I think that might be a little too tight and will loosen it off perhaps 1/2 inch.

I also started making some Gothic floating elbows. With some experimentation, I think I may have found a Very Good Way of flaring the edges of the elbows out. Watch this space.





Peace out.

Dave

[Aussie Yeoman]

A little progress.

I initially planned to fold the wing into the V shape then stretch the edges, forcing the wing into the curved shape.



For whatever reson, I decided to do it differently. I reflattened the wing and bent it into the curved shape, to be flared out into the V shape. I didn't take a picture of it.

Then the flaring started. I reckon, realistically, I averaged about 60-80 strikes per minute, for about 90 minutes. That's at least 5000 hammer strikes just to get the cop on the left to it where it is now:



And it still needs some planishing and (eek!) fluting. I will try to keep it to a minimum.

I've never seen, never mind handled, a real or even high quality reproduction before. This raised a bit of a challenge, in that there are so many complex and compound, at times contradictory curves, that photographs alone do not quite cut the mustard.







I would have liked to have the flare blended a bit more smoothly, and a little deeper into the cop. Ah well. It's my first pair.

Very unfortunately, I was interrupted before I was able to get the other cop to the same stage. I would much have preferred to leave the shed with both cops at the same stage.

I suspect I may have made them a smidge too big. I think if the pattern had been 75% of the size I used, it would have fit a lot better. As it is, I think it'd fit Mad Matt, Pitbull or one of the other popeye-armed armourers better than me. These may be up for sale.





I'd be interested to hear from the likes of Wade or any of the Jiris or Juris how they flare their gothic elbow cops. Cats and their skins are in many ways parted.

D

[Mac]

Dave,

The short answer is to flair them HOT. Nothing else compares, really. I've tried many ways of cold flaring. Once I started doing it hot, I never looked back.

Mac

[Aussie Yeoman]

Though helpful, that's an answer I wasn't looking forward to hearing, what without having a heat source and all. I know, I have to suck it up and get one sometime soon. Can't do without it really.

I wasn't expecting to hear from you Mac...I thought this was your mega-busy season!

Dave

[Mac]

I sneak away for a few minutes now and again, to see what's happening.

Mac

[Aussie Yeoman]

More work today.

I got the other elbow to the same stage as the first, and it took nearly half an hour less. Then after looking at many effigies and toying with the idea of different ways to flute them, I went with the minimalistic approach. Mostly as I want this haness wearable as soon as possible. Also the less I do to it, the less chance I have to stuff it up.



I also finished the rest of the hinge blanks:



What I discovered was that peening the shanks of hinges is a real pain, no matter what way I try. The main lesson I learned was do not rush to make more hinges!

After some experimentation (the very last hinge, unfortunately) I found something that made life a little easier. In a block of steel I drilled two holes. One was the same diameter as the shank, and not at all deep. Maybe 1/8". I drilled another one about 1/4" diameter, only as deep as the cap of the drill bit - no shaft.

I then cut a length of shank for the hinge that poked out either side of the hinge barrel. I put this into the hinge, then put one end of the shank into the narrow hole and peened the upper end over. Then I turned the hinge over and put the now peened end into the wider, shallower hole. Sort of like a rivet set, and peened the other end. Wish I'd thought of it sooner.

What do other people do for this fiddly operation?

Dave

[Pitbull Armory]

Hi Aussie, Nice job on the Elbow Cops, espesially for a first try! My first shot at one of those is still unfinished, I really had a hard time getting the shape even close to what I wanted. Keep up the great work.

Take care

Andy

[Aussie Yeoman]

I got to work on it some more yesterday.

My original intention was to do some really nice full Gothic arms and pauldrons. I still will, however for the sake of expediancy and learning opportunity I decided to go with a Gothic splinted arm defence with spaudlers and besagews.

I took a pattern of Wade and Aaron's and mutated it to fit me, and changed some of the curves and scallopped edges etc. They're quite a bit different now.

Anyway. I took an old project - what was once going to be 14thC spaudlers, and realised they'd be the exact right size to turn into 21stC pseudo-Gothic spaudlers:



After a bit of trimming:





One way that I changed Wade and Aaron's pattern was to make the spaudler lames taller at the back than at the front. The purpose of this is to create the final effect of the arm harness sweeping subtly forward of the point of the shoulder when hanging. This detail is often missed, but is quite pronounced on maximillian gorget/pauldron combos.





The top edge of these lames are convex. Also, it isn't particularly noticable because of the scallopped edge, but the lame is curved overall, like a '(' shape. if you curl the lames to sit flush pn the surface of a cone, the upper edge will be flat, and the spaudler will taper from the bottom of the shoulder cop to the rerebrace:



the tapering and sweeping effects are parhaps a little too subtle in the execution. Hoewver this is fixable as the spaudler is currently riveted solid together for fine tuning of the taper, and I can adjust the sweeping effect when it comes time to cut the slots for the sliding rivets at the rear of the lames. I think it would have been better to have shorter lames, and maybe more of them.

I also did some rather primitive lower canons, gutter style. I may add wrapper plates to enclose them. Haven't decided yet. Again, they're altered patterns from Wade:



I changed the length a little to suit my forearm, changed the curve that follows the crease in the arm when the elbow is bent, and made the curve at the wrist convex instead of concave so that if I add a wrappe, it will look gooder.

After an hour or two of toiling with various hammers, this is what I had:





Here you can see the form-following shape of the canon. I need to bring it in a little at the proximal end:



My fluting, again, was off. Arg! Also, my skill at intersecting flutes is nothing to be envied.



I didn't think to check until I was done - but thankfully, my gauntlets still fit over these.

So here's my arm harness so far:



I ran out of cutting disk to do any more.

Dave

[Alan Tynneker]

Amazing stuff. For some reason, it impresses me much more to see these rough from the hammer and in progress, than the completed, polished armor. Thanks for the photos!

[Sam O.]

Considering you didn't use any heat on the elbows, they have a nice shape. I also like the spaulders, I've noticed the tapered look before and always thought that it adds a certain elegance to the arms.

I'm enjoying watching this thread.

[Ckanite]

I LOVE the way those elbows are lookin!! very cool!

[Aussie Yeoman]

A very little progress:

upper canons of the arm harness. Fluted. My converging flutes seem to be improving a little, and the apexes of the chevrons almost line up properly.





I found it encouraging to lay it all out in one place. Seeing it in the flesh (or ferrous) all together, and seeing what I once thought was an impressive collection of scrounged sheet steel, I realise: Hey, knights wore a real lot of metal.



And this is only half of it or so.

Will be grinding, polishing and strapping quite soon.

Haven't decided if legs or helm/bevor are next.

D

[Ckanite]

OH WOW!!! that is looking mighty fine!! and yes they did wear a rather large amount of metal...

[wcallen]

One way that I changed Wade's pattern was to make the spaudler lames taller at the back than at the front. The purpose of this is to create the final effect of the arm harness sweeping subtly forward of the point of the shoulder when hanging. This detail is often missed, but is quite pronounced on maximillian gorget/pauldron combos.

No problem with that at all. In fact it is completely reasonable. I find that happens in plenty of real pieces.

Later you say that the effect isn't pronounced yet. It won't be. It will be later.

The idea is simple. Set all of the plates up to hang straight. Then cut the slots "up" from the location where you have them temporarily attached. Then when you attach the front and center with leathers the front can only collapse and the back can only extend. Voila - you get the "nice sweep" sort of for free.

Keep it up.

Wade

P.S. thanks for the credit on the patterns. I am glad you feel free to adapt them. The accurate credit would be "Wade and Aaron" - those patterns were worked out while we were working together in the mid 80's. He doesn't post a lot, but I try to be accurate when providing a source for things.

PPS. if you care you can make perfectly authentic German gothic stuff with more subtle flutes. They are often not very deep and many times "one sided". Look closely at the form of the flutes on this piece:

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-98-right.jpg

Some are "two sided" and some "one sided".

[Aussie Yeoman]

Thanks Ckanite. I wanted to have them a bit more flutey in the body of the elbows, but my stake won't reach in there.

Hi Wade,

I ammended my post accordingly. Credit paid where credit's due.

Thanks for the tip re-cutting the slots. How much slot per lame? I was guessing something like 1/4" or so, which would give about an inch of travel overall.

Ang gee-whizz. I wish I'd noticed that about the flutes a looong time ago. Would've saved a real lot of hammering. If I'm to interpret what I'm seeing in this picture correctly, then those flutes and creases that are roughly longitudinal, along the limb, are symmetrical, while those flutes that are oblique or perpindicular to the limb's length are more likely to be stepped...and in particular stepping down the limb. Would that be right?

As for the depth of the flutes, it's a result of my beginner's-enthusiasm. Ask a beginning painter to paint up to an imaginary line on a wall, when you get back the whole wall will be painted due to the painter trying to get the line just right. I'll try to make them a little more subtle. I'm sure that will also save a lot of hammer strokes, which means less noise and less time. That's a winner in my book.

How deep, or how pronounced, could flutes be? If measured from the smooth surface of the armour? I should know this for the legs......

Dave

[Ckanite]

Well deep flutes can be called for on some pieces, or for certain pourposes. For the tassets, it looks good, the faulds should be half of what they look they are, and the arms should be much much less. As a rule for myself, I just judge by eye. Like when I'm making dramatic masks, I make nice deep flutes, and the same goes for when I make fantasy pieces, as for historical pieces, I usually go for a sharp and shallow approach, but thats just me I think.

[Aussie Yeoman]

I had promised myself that on this harness, I would not do inner canons to make the lower part of the vambrace enclose. However, yesterday I found myself working on some and all too many hours later, they are at the stage they are now.

I found the gentle curves of the inner plate fairly easy, which was a pleasant relief.



Without much trouble, I got the iner and outer plates lined up.



However, what I did next was to locate the hinges, then temporarily attach them. Then I rolled the edges around the cuff. To my horror, despite my very careful measuring, remeasuring and measuring again, when I came to put the inner onto the outer with the rolled edges, the distal edges did not align if the hinges were straight, and vice versa.



So I guess the trick might be to form the inner and outer at the same time, cut overwidth, roll the edges at the cuff, THEN locate and attach the hinges. Maybe.

I really don't know. If someone else knows any trick of the trade in this department, I'd be most eager to hear about them for next time.

Dave

[Aussie Yeoman]

Well the arms are done....or as done as I can be bothered to get them at this stage. They've been done for a while - I just haven't posted here for a bit.





I think I will end up replacing these arms with something more thematically homogenous with the cuirass.

While I'm planning the knees/cuisses, I started experimenting with a long, narrow, tapering piece of steel. Well, two of them actually. After a couple of hours of work I got from flat steel to this:











I did myself what I found to be an enormous favour and added plenty around the sides to allow for trimmable fat and contingency. I am very glad I did because I have found that I might need quite a lot of it in places. These are not yet cut to the final outline - the only bit that is is the instep, and if need be I think I could lose another 1/4 inch off there as well.

I have done these completely cold; evidenced by the paint that's still on them. I'm quite pleased with them so far, although I am yet to bring them in more around the ankles, bring them in at the top to conform to the top of the lower leg, and etc. Still to go also is the ankle bumps, and of course the rear part of the greaves.

For years I have wondered if it would be possible to make leggitimate *looking* greaves without a gas torch (I have no gas torch) and it appears that the answer is indeed yes.

peace out

[Aussie Yeoman]

Here's just a couple of fun shots:









Seeing it on, it is easier to observe where the patterns need to be adjusted and made gooder. For example -

The top points of the breastplate should come higher to create more of a U shaoe around the throat.
The upper edge that goes under the arm should be 2-3 inches higher, closer to the shoulder joint.
The width of the breastplate betweet the shoulders could be a smidge wider.
The elbow pattern will need to be reduced in size by about 25%. If not more.
The waist should have been narrower to make it more accurate in the silhouette.
And most likely a bunch of other stuff.

And then there's the backplate. Urgh. I hadn't seen the backplate on me before, so had no idea how badly it sat. The back fauld comes out waaaaaay too far. I was thinking I could perhaps remedy that by moving the rivet holes on each overlapping plate further to the front just a bit, and perhaps down a little, but use the same rivet hole in each underlapping bit, so that the centre back of the fauld lames can hang lower, and thus closer to my body. Any thoughts on that?

As for the top of the backplate, it's fairly obvious I need to push the top corners in closer to my shoulders by about 3/4 inch.

I'm simply itching to get started on the legs.........

[LastKNIGHT]

Wow, for a first suit, that looks pretty damn good. Definitely better than my first attempt for sure. It may have a couple parts that are a bit off, but once you get that thing properly sanded and finished, I think it'll look awesome.

[Sam O.]

It looks better being worn than just spread out in pieces, for what it's worth.

Do you plan to make a helmet for it in the future?

[Aussie Yeoman]

Yep. It will get a helmet. Haven't yet decided which helmet I will do first - sallet with bevor or great-bascinet.

[Edvvard]

Please do a sallet! Your posts are helping me with my project, but the Sallet is a pain to figure out. Not sure if I should try to make it in halves and then have it welded or just try to dish it out altogether.

[Aussie Yeoman]

So I'm now in a mad rush to get more of this done for an upcoming event that has sort of snuck up on me.

I found the problem with the arm harness pinching - I had fallen prey to the beast that seeks to make the unwary armourer cover the body with unnecessary steel. I'm sure it happens to others. What had happened was I templated the lower and upper canons with straight arms and didn't bother too much with what happened when my arm bent. Then, when it was all together, the upper and lower canon ended up bunching some flesh betwixt them, giving me some very localised and surprisingly colored bruises and blood blisters.

So I hit the books and tried to determine how much clearance arms such as these had. The answer was 'quite a bit more than I had originally thought'.

It turns out that you don't need to panic that the inside of your elbows are exposed when your arms are straight. Why? Because when fighting, your arms are barely if ever straight. And if they are, you're likely doing (or receiving) an armbar or wrestling manoeuvre, which in either case still does not really matter that a few more square inches of not-plate are exposed on your arm.

So there was some trimming of upper and lower canon to do. Which I did. Because of the rush, and the low probability it will end badly in this instance, I've not rolled the lower edge of the upper canon, but rounded the edge. I'm sure it will be fine.

I also remade the cops. The ones I had were ludicrously big. I took the pattern I used previously, and shrunk it to 80%. As I was making them, I thought they were surely too small, and couldn't possibly be of any utility. In the back of my mind, I wanted to press on, hoping that the other part of my brain was just biased owing to the fact they were picturing the previous iteration as correct.

As it turns out, the new set is sized pretty much perfectly. As you can see, when the arm is bent, the tail of the cop (the pattern looks a little like a sting ray, so I think the bit that goes inside the elbow should be the tail) hugs closely to the upper and lower canon. The previous cops, which could swallow whole the new cops, do not do this, and create an unacceptable gap, as opposed to the acceptable gap I mentioned before. Obviously, I've not bothered to flute these ones.



And with two properly sized cops:



Also, I was displeased with how I had previously assembled all the pieces. Last time, I had a strip of leather riveted to upper and lower canon and the cop. The rivet that held leather to cop also secured the strap that went around the elbow. This was painfully tedious to put together, and made it impossible to quickly disassemble.

Again, looking at some originals, I found an answer. Some originals show two rivets on the medial line of the cop. One (I presume) holds a strap that gets laced to upper and lower canon, and the other rivet holds the strap that goes around the arm. So that's what I did here. I noticed another thing too. Such a thing was the placement of the rivet that secures the lacing tab on the cop. I realised that this rivet is located on the cop at the point of intersection of the medial lines of upper and lower canon, when the cop is pushed against the bent elbow. Sound complicated? It isn't. It was a massive "Aha!" moment to realise it.

With leather tabs and indestructible boot laces aplenty, and after having been trimmed down, the arm harness now moves more freely, does not bite, and is a little more gooder.

I've also started some knees, of course for a leg harness, based on those seen in the halfsword section of Talhoffer's 1459 fechtbuch. I haven't seen anyone else in modern times make a set like this, though they might well have. I think they'll look cool, as long as I don't royally stuff them up...which I have a history of doing.

[Konstantin the Red]

And here the matter rests, like Barbarossa and his knights, until RESURRECTED in a time of need.

[Myron]

Well, I appreciate you reviving this thread. I haven't seen it before and he is doing a lot of the same things I have been trying to do with similar tools.

[RandallMoffett]

Have Heard heard from AY in some time. Hope he is doing well.

RPM

[Tom B.]

Have Heard heard from AY in some time. Hope he is doing well.

RPM

Dave is still around and making stuff
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177824

[Aussie Yeoman]

Yeah, I still float around.

Alas, I've done nary a thing to progress this harness in a long time. A very long time.

It's embarrassing compared to the blindingly fast progress of Jeremy's first harness.

[Jeremy.G]

Nah, I'm just scrambling, trying to catch up to you.

Those elbows & arms look great. They have me second-guessing my decision to go Italian with those bits...