Late period mitten gauntlet articulation

[Kristoffer]

So, how do you get the articulation of these suckers to work properly?

I am thinking about making a pair of maximilian style mittens, gonna start with a simplified version without all the flutings to get the articulation and fitting working properly.. I have experimented with the articulation and the only way I seem to get it to work fairly well is to curve the edges on the plates so they follow the edge of the knuckles when you bend your fingers.. Its kinda hard to explain this.. Anyhow, I will want to use the result as SCA gauntlets and from what I have seen, the historical gauntlets seem to be resting on top of the hand, not going all the way down resting on the weapon as required by SCA rules.. This is what I feel creates the problem since its easier to get the articulation working if you dont have tall edges on the side of the fingers..

If anyone have some inside pictures of this style of gauntlet, and perhaps some closeups of the vital details of the articulation, I would be a happy camper.. Also, any pointers and suggestions would be wonderful..

[wcallen]

It looks like I haven't been very good about shooting that kind of detail on my pieces. this one is about as close as it gets:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-122.html

These are some more gauntlets to stare at:

http://www.allenantiques.com/Armour-Gau ... ction.html

The basic important details are:
The plates aren't flat in any way. They are curved over their entire surface.
The pivot holes really do need to be right in line with the edge of the plate which is what causes the little ears on the plates.

No, the real ones don't touch the haft of the weapon. Making them deeper will change the geometry involved a lot. The real question (since I haven't played the SCA game in decades) is - do mittens really have to 'bottom out' on he haft, or is that just the way people make them because it 'must be safer'? There is no good reason to make them do that. we never did and we never had anyone complain. But that was back in the dark ages when we got away with a lot.

Which brings me to a pet peeve. It always annoys me when marshals who know everything declare period plate armour illegal 'because it can't be safe'.

Back to the real topic.

If you want some more shots of some of any of those gauntlets (many of the mittens really work the same way Max ones would), just ask.

Wade

[Kristoffer]

Nice pics sir, its appreciated and a good start. My concern is regarding the "knuckle rows" and the articulation of the plates connected with the knuckles. There are models that have three knuckle plates and all articulation is done "inside" of those.. Have had problems finding good pics but these gauntlets have the tree rows of knuckles I am talking about.

http://sl-armours.com/eng/showitem/id,4 ... xvi-c.html

On the link you submitted it looks like the plates connected to the knuckles goes on top of eachother, that would explain a lot of my problems with figuring out how its supposed to articulate.. Is it just that picture/that pair of gauntlets or is that the way to do it?

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-122-inside.jpg

[wcallen]

The gauntlets in your first link are a very nice modern pair and the description admits that they took liberties with the way they designed the pieces. They didn't actually copy the illustration they based their work on, they 'put classic mittens' on them.

The style they chose is a period style. It was done, and it can be seen in these:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-99.html

It is a less common style than the more normal one where there is a knuckle plate which overlaps the last metacarpal plate and the first finger plates. Then each of the succeeding finger plates underlaps the previous one. The image you linked second does illustrate this more typical form.

I had one of the gauntlets from this set (they aren't actually a pair, they are just similar) down off display so I shot some more pictures.

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-104.html

I will get them up soon and re-post when they are available.

They aren't quite as early as maximilian, but they are close and they are constructed in a manner that is the same as some of the maximillian ones. Basically if you are going to build a 'maximilian without the fluting', this is what you are probably aiming for. The fingers work the same way. The back of hand is the same. The bump over the ulna is cool and you have to have one, and many of the maximilan gauntlets are designed with a narrow cuff so they open just like this one.

Stay tuned.

Wade

[Kristoffer]

Ah, the first link had some really nice inside shots, should help a lot to get the mechanics worked out..

I will when I have the articulation worked out properly do maximilian ones, with flutings and everyting so if you can dig up some pictures of a nice pair that would be exellent..

[wcallen]

OK, more pictures are available now here:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-104.html

Details to know if you do think about copying:

This gauntlet has been cleaned and patched a little bit. The finger and metacarpal plates should likely move just a bit farther.

The cuff is attached using the wrong set of holes. Someone used the holes that should have attached a wrist strap to attach the first metacarpal plate. This means basically that the metacarpal should sit about 3/8" farther forward and the hand should move forward a little more. This would put some space between the base of the metacarpal plates and the bump over the ulna. The rest is pretty much as it would have been originally.

The thumb plates are an upgrade from the basic form. They are kind of fun.

Wade

[Kristoffer]

I was actually looking at the thumb a bit, interesting one, I like the nail.. =)

Shouldnt be too hard to make a enclosed thumb tip in that style.. need to modify the hinge a bit but that should be the easy part =)

[wcallen]

Just personal opinions now...

They did make enclosed thumbs right about this time, but depending on how you make everything work, there is no need for it. This is a case of people liking to hold weapons differently. Personally, I liked to have my thumb sort of rolled over the end of the first finger. This means that tended to like to get it up under the end of the finger plates on a mitten. If you do that, the end plate on the thumb is mostly decorative and you don't have to do an enclosed one. If, on the other hand, you like sticking your thumb straight up next to the index finger, by all means, please make an enclosed thumb.

The hinge shouldn't need much modification. Just make it out of stainless/spring and make sure it is a fully wrapped hinge like the originals. It should be fine. If you do modify it, that will be the easiest thing on these gauntlets. While on the subject of the hinge, some of the later 16th c. and 17th c. ones just used a leather strip instead of the hinge. The leather goes on the inside of the plates instead of the outside.

Good luck, have fun, and post your results.

Wade

[Kristoffer]

Ressurecting this old thread since I took up this project two days ago. =)

Wade, I know you could'nt resist looking at this thread, I have seen a couple of videos of articulation of this kind of gauntlet but I haven't been able to find a working link. Do you have them available on your site? If so, could you post the links and make me forever grateful? =)

[wcallen]

I guess I need to do something to make these more obvious.

There is a link for "detailed images" on my main page. Down at the bottom there are some videos.

You want this one:

http://www.allenantiques.com/movies/Rus ... vement.mp4

I brought this gauntlet to the HammerFest last weekend to let people play with it.

It moves the same way a really good Max. gauntlet will move.

The overall link that has all of the details and videos is here:

http://www.allenantiques.com/Details.html

Wade

P.S. You can send an email, I respond to those too.

[mattmaus]

The pivot holes really do need to be right in line with the edge of the plate which is what causes the little ears on the plates.

Ok. I'ma ask, because I'm struggling with this.

I've never found a pair of gauntlets that I liked (I quit fighting a LONG time ago, and not having gauntlets I liked was a big part of it). I friggin hate the damned pillbug looking things most SCA folks wear. The patern I like most has been dubbed "reverse articulating" which I find daffy, because it articulates in the same direction of your examples, and the examples that I've seen seem to mostly go this way. To my mind it's only reverse to what most people are used to seeing and the pill-bugs are the backwards ones. This afore mentioned pattern that I like best DOES ground out. The drawback to it overall is that it can be made to gap signifigantly, and rather relies on grounding out on something to prevent the gaping. It works GREAT, but it bugs me. This pattern does not have the little ears, and in fact the rivet point is well behind the edge of the plate. You can see a pair here: http://members.armourarchive.org/mattma ... aunt01.jpg

So... in a quest to build gods' own pair of gauntlets, I started listening to folks like you "Look at how it was actualy done in period. Look at real period examples." and I pulled up a mess of your pictures. The process was "Hmm... those have little ears. Hey, so do those... hey, they all have the little ears!" Fine. Pattern out some ears. I was really hoping it would be an amazing "Ah-Ha!" moment, and the little ears would be the saviour of hand-kind throughout the galaxy. Pattern out and prototype and cuss at about 3 square feet worth of finger lames with ears, and not be happy with any of them.

The problem that I encountered was that as I shifted the rivet point forward towards (and in some of my trials past) the front edge of the plate, the worse my articulation got in the direction that I wanted it to go (eg closing the hand into a fist) and the better it got in the other direction (opening the hand, to an extent that if my fingers went that fat back it would be uncomfortable). Like this: http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/gauntart.jpg

So... what part of this puzzle am I missing?

[mattmaus]

The pivot holes really do need to be right in line with the edge of the plate which is what causes the little ears on the plates.

Ok. I'ma ask, because I'm struggling with this.

I've never found a pair of gauntlets that I liked (I quit fighting a LONG time ago, and not having gauntlets I liked was a big part of it). I friggin hate the damned pillbug looking things most SCA folks wear. The patern I like most has been dubbed "reverse articulating" which I find daffy, because it articulates in the same direction of your examples, and the examples that I've seen seem to mostly go this way. To my mind it's only reverse to what most people are used to seeing and the pill-bugs are the backwards ones. This afore mentioned pattern that I like best DOES ground out. The drawback to it overall is that it can be made to gap signifigantly, and rather relies on grounding out on something to prevent the gaping. It works GREAT, but it bugs me. This pattern does not have the little ears, and in fact the rivet point is well behind the edge of the plate. You can see a pair here: http://members.armourarchive.org/mattma ... aunt01.jpg

So... in a quest to build gods' own pair of gauntlets, I started listening to folks like you "Look at how it was actualy done in period. Look at real period examples." and I pulled up a mess of your pictures. The process was "Hmm... those have little ears. Hey, so do those... hey, they all have the little ears!" Fine. Pattern out some ears. I was really hoping it would be an amazing "Ah-Ha!" moment, and the little ears would be the saviour of hand-kind throughout the galaxy. Pattern out and prototype and cuss at about 3 square feet worth of finger lames with ears, and not be happy with any of them.

The problem that I encountered was that as I shifted the rivet point forward towards (and in some of my trials past) the front edge of the plate, the worse my articulation got in the direction that I wanted it to go (eg closing the hand into a fist) and the better it got in the other direction (opening the hand, to an extent that if my fingers went that fat back it would be uncomfortable). Like this: http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/gauntart.jpg

So... what part of this puzzle am I missing?

[leekellerking]

Anyhow, I will want to use the result as SCA gauntlets and from what I have seen, the historical gauntlets seem to be resting on top of the hand, not going all the way down resting on the weapon as required by SCA rules.. This is what I feel creates the problem since its easier to get the articulation working if you dont have tall edges on the side of the fingers..

This is not quite correct. The rules require "2. A gauntlet made of rigid material, either lined with ¼ inch (6mm) of closed-cell foam or equivalent or designed to transfer potentially injurious impact to the surfaces being grasped." (Pg. 14, Marshal’s Handbook Drachenwald Edition).

Therefore, if you can put up with a little closed-cell foam, your gauntlets can be legal without bridging (assuming the marshals actually read the manual).

Lee

[leekellerking]

Anyhow, I will want to use the result as SCA gauntlets and from what I have seen, the historical gauntlets seem to be resting on top of the hand, not going all the way down resting on the weapon as required by SCA rules.. This is what I feel creates the problem since its easier to get the articulation working if you dont have tall edges on the side of the fingers..

This is not quite correct. The rules require "2. A gauntlet made of rigid material, either lined with ¼ inch (6mm) of closed-cell foam or equivalent or designed to transfer potentially injurious impact to the surfaces being grasped." (Pg. 14, Marshal’s Handbook Drachenwald Edition).

Therefore, if you can put up with a little closed-cell foam, your gauntlets can be legal without bridging (assuming the marshals actually read the manual).

Lee

[Kristoffer]

mattmaus, the problem you are having is most likely because of the rivets ending up too far down. This is a problem I have encountered while trying to make a suitable pattern of this gauntlet type. When the pattern is modified to ground out on the rattan, the articulation point is moved downwards and this totally farks up the articulation.

If you look at the pictures Wade posted earlier in this thread you can see that the articulation point of the gauntlets is very close to the "corner" and the angle of the side is not 90 degrees. Any change done to the articulation changes the physics of how it should work, therefor it does not.

I have actually made a proto-prototype that kinda works and I will soon have a semi-decent pattern that works. It has to wait until my new legs are done, but I will post some pics as soon as I have something worth showing =)

[Konstantin the Red]

Good resurrection, guys. Awaiting further developments with interest.

[coreythompsonhm]

I was just thinking about the gauntlets Mac made Chris Gilman and was trying to remember what Mac was saying about the articulations. Hopefully something will pop up here and I'll remember. This thread was resurrected right on time, seeing as my next project is some gauntlets. Will be following this with great interest.