The Armour Archive

*Best Joker Impersonation* How do you make those wonderful toys?

That is, what're the odds we can get a tutorial on your sexy, sexy shields? And scabbards?


*makes puppy-dog eyes, which would work better if Francisco were at all cute*

No
way
dude.

Problem is that while I'm sure your request was in good faith what you are really saying is:

"I'm not going to buy these things from you, please tell me exactly how to make them myself for free"


-Justus

How quickly the noble succumb to the almighty dollar.

Greed is a vice, is it not?

Sir Vitus, I was under the impression, that your venture was more in the attempt to rid the SCA of the dreaded rubber heater hose edging on shields, than an economic endeavor.

Spreading the word on the process would help to reach this innitial goal.

If Sir Vitus feels compelled to conceal the secrets of his trade, or somehow is unable to type out the process... I can post a somewhat less-durable method when I get back home, and take on my next project.

I just cover plywood with canvas, but it holds up ok for a while.

EDIT:
As far as people copying your method... I'm thinking if I had a way to turn lead into gold, and it was a royal pain in the ass... I could post the recipie word for word, and my "turn lead into gold" business would still be a major sucess.

ANOTHER EDIT:
This responce sounds really pompous and self rightious... I'm adding gratuitous smilies so Vitus doesn't flat snap me into next weekend...

I disagree.

When I post something I've made I know folks might look at it and say, hey that's cool, I can make that on my own. Most of the time I'm encouraging that very thing even though at some point I plan to begin selling to the SCA market. It's another thing to write and ask for free measured plans and instructions.

Every craftsman in the world has to deal with the notion that some people are going to see what they have made and decide they would rather make it themselves than pay for it.

As for the tutorials I've posted, they tend to deal with process, or if they are completed items, they are items that I don't ever intend to sell.

-Justus

True.

But, if I recall correctly... and I could be wrong. I readily admit it...

But if I recall correctly... Sir Vitus stated point blank when he started the entire process of coming up with a niegh indestructable non-hosed shield... that he was doing so in order to rid the SCA of hose edged shields...

And, that he was trying to avoid becoming too merchantile in nature... with this project.

True enough, anyone with the right skill set and motivation could make the kind of stuff Vitus sells.

Whether they're going to get to the level of achievement already achieved (By Vitus, or any skilled person) in time to make it anything approaching economically sensible or not, is the real question.

Francisco Lopez de Leon, if money is an issue and you have some skills of your own, I'd suggest you offer Sir Vitus some of your labour in exchange for some of his - provided he's keen. That way you get a spiffy shield, and he gets something he's after.

I've had great success doing this in the past - I've cleaned kitchens, made almost 600 pies, cooked for people, in exchange for garb and help with armor. Plus, you meet cool people, and learn new things.

At the price Vitus sells his shields for, you really making out better on the deal paying him to do it.

If you must do it yourself, just build a normal wooden shield, but add in some layers of fiber glass blanket you can get from an Autobody shop. Use a high quality glue, at least titebond II or III, if really ambitious experiment with various high impact epoxies. Cover the shield in canvas, use some gesso then paint and you too can have a good shield, after many hours of labor.

I like making my own shields as I use T-nuts hidden inside them to attach my straps, but they are a bit labor intensive if you want to do them right.

The scabbards, frankly, are easy. If you have enough of the needed skillset to make them, you can figure out the process readily.

The shields are another matter altogether, what with all the time, effort, money that he's put into finding which goop works best for the purpose and all that.

Still, the goop is the secret, building curved wooden shields isn't that big a trick and there are lots of ways and a number of threads that discuss them.

So, ya know, reimburse him for his R&D and I bet Vitus would reconsider sharing the secrets...

It was my understanding that the Armour Archive was about dispensing armouring information, improving the overall armouring community and ensuring we all have sexy armour, thus improving the WMA community/SCA/Renn Faire/whatever.

The reason that I asked is because I have a large-ish household of relatively poor blokes- guys with not a lot of money, but who are more than willing to put in the hours of sweat equity to look period on the field. We'll be pooling resources to get the materials and then making a weekend or two out of the process, production-line style.

From a mercantile point of view, these are guys whose money Sir Vitus would not be seeing anyway because they have none to speak of- except that, perhaps, if they one day have a little more dispensible income then they might want to spare themselves the headache of building these shields and scabbards and pay him.

In a community where many successful armourers seem to take the position of "Hey, I make neat stuff and you can too" I must say I am a little disappointed to be stonewalled so curtly.

The processes are easy enough to figure out, but a tutorial would have been nice to help a bunch of newbie shield-makers to avoid making mistakes, etc. that Sir Vitus might already have dealt with/figured out. If he wants to keep his specific recipe secret, that's fine- but I feel it would have been nice of you to say so, Sir Vitus, rather than giving me a three-word response.

All of that said, I hope that should we ever meet that this conversation does not preclude any possible discussion, friendship, etc- I am just giving a frank opinion (the only kind I have).

Francisco, if you had been clearer on your purpose for asking, I expect you might have gotten more than a three word response. But given the cutesy way you asked, I completely understand Vitus's response.

I also don't think we should read Vitus's response as an outright attempt to keep secrets. You guys are reacting a bit harshly in this respect and jumping to conclusions.

Halberds recent sabatons thread was an excellent example of how an expert can share their knowledge with the folks on this forum. While it may be a bit much to ask for a detailed tutorial, simply sharing photos of the process, commenting on the general order of things and answering questions is what we're all about.

So, Vitus, short of writing full tutorials, would you be willing to share some info on the processes? I'm personally about to start a scabbard project and though I think I know what all is involved, I'm sure I could be saved a headache or three by any advice you might share.

The problem you are not seeing is that if Vitus gives you the recipe and processes there is nothing keeping you or your friends from mass producing those shields and undercutting him.

combine that with the fact that you only just registered on June of 2008, we have no track record about you.

Actually I don't have the time to even write a protracted explanation.

Maybe later in the evening...

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:It was my understanding that the Armour Archive was about dispensing armouring information, improving the overall armouring community and ensuring we all have sexy armour, thus improving the WMA community/SCA/Renn Faire/whatever.

That may be true, but the Archive is just a place to share that information, there is no requirement for its members to share everything or even anything they know.

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:The reason that I asked is because I have a large-ish household of relatively poor blokes- guys with not a lot of money, but who are more than willing to put in the hours of sweat equity to look period on the field. We'll be pooling resources to get the materials and then making a weekend or two out of the process, production-line style.

I'd like to help you out, but first a few questions need answering. How are you planning to use the shields? Practice, Melees, Tournaments, High Profile Tournaments, etc...? Light wooden shields are typically consumable, especially without some sort of edging. The wood can only take so much abuse regardless of how the shield is edged.


Here is how I build my shields. I'll try to take some photos for you this evening as soon as my camera is charged.

This is a quick overview, I'll assume you have some basic tools like a jig saw and drill.

Step 1. Build a shield Press if you don't already have one
Step 2. Go to your nearest Lowes/Home Depot or similar store. Buy the following:
A 4'x8' 5.2mm exterior grade plywood, have them cut it for you in 2'x4' sections
1 gallon of Titebond II
A canvas drop cloth
Step 3. Spread a thin even coat of titebond II on one face of two pieces of the plywood, press the glued faces together and put into your press, let it sit for a day or two
Step 4. Remove your newly pressed shield blank from the press and cut out your desired shape. Retain the scrap edges of the blank.
Step 5. Decide which edges of your shield will take the most punishment, use the scrap from your blank and cut out sections that match the curvature, glue and clamp these to your shield for reinforcement
Step 6. This step is optional, I used it on my last one, I'll probably omit it on the next one. After the reinforcement has dried, take a section of rubber garden hose, slit it, and apply to your shield edge with glue and clamps.
Step 7. After the hose has dried, apply a thin, even layer of glue to the front of your shield, stretch your canvas over the shield, pressing it into the glue. I usually iron the canvas before this stage to remove any large creases, its not necessary but it helps. Make sure there are no wrinkles in the face and if necessary clamp it at the edges, the glue is usually tacky enough to omit the clamps.
Step 8. After the face has dried, cut out the canvas with around 4-5" extra around the outline of the shield. Apply glue to the edge and a few inches around the perimeter of the back. Pull the canvas around the edge and press it into the glue, you will need to make some slits and cuts in the canvas around curves and at corners to help it lay as flat as possible.
Step 9. Cut out a piece of canvas that is the same shape as your shield, minus a few inches. Glue this to the back of the shield.
Step 10. Optional: Apply a thin layer of gesso to the canvas to give a smooth surface for painting.
Step 11. Paint your shield as desired, I like to paint the back of my shields black
Step 12. Strap your shield for your fighting style and enjoy.

To vary the strength of the shield, use thicker plywood or more layers. Baron Raven that taught me part of this method had a shield made from a layer of 1/4" and a layer of 1/8" plywood last nearly a year of tournaments and practices.

There are other options besides the hose to help increase the life of a shield. On my first shield, I stitched leather over the canvas around the entire edge of the sheild.

Here's a few pictures of the shields I could find quickly. I apologize for the quality of images, I was in rush.

The first picture shows one of my shields with the front covered in canvas, there is a garden hose over the edge/under the canvas. It has held up very well. I left the back bare as I was in a rush and didn't have time.

[img]http://www.mechanarium.com/images/misc/temp/shields1.jpg[/img]

Picture two shows the reenforcement that covers the upper edges and top. The shield is 4 layers at these points and it reenforcement extends inwards about 2 inches.
[img]http://www.mechanarium.com/images/misc/temp/shields7.jpg[/img]

Pictures three and four are of one of my enchrance blanks. It is made of 3 layers of 5.2mm plywood.

[img]http://www.mechanarium.com/images/misc/temp/shields2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.mechanarium.com/images/misc/temp/shields3.jpg[/img]

Images five and six are one of my finished enchrances. The canvas on the back was trimmed to fit and painted black.
[img]http://www.mechanarium.com/images/misc/temp/shields9.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.mechanarium.com/images/misc/temp/shields10.jpg[/img]

Image seven shows the back of a canvas covered shield that wasn't trimmed very well before gluing. This was my first attempt at shield making several years ago.

[img]http://www.mechanarium.com/images/misc/temp/shields5.jpg[/img]

The last two images are just close up shots of the tip and corner of the leather I sewed on the edging.

[img]http://www.mechanarium.com/images/misc/temp/shields6.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.mechanarium.com/images/misc/temp/shields4.jpg[/img]


I'll take some pictures of the constructions process next time I press out some shields. The quality of your shields is really just dependent on the care you take at each step. Wooden shields must balance weight with strength. Some things such as exotic epoxies can make them last longer, but take more time and money to make.

I apologize for my reaction- I did not intend to come across as demanding knowledge just because it's the Archive- I was just a little sore about the brevity/bluntness of the response and misinterpreting it.

I am also sorry that I did not fully explain my position at first.

That said, my thanks to those who provided their knowledge. I don't intend to make a business out of this- just improve my House and Barony.

As for the use of the light-weight shields: for tourneys. War shields are fine with leather or raw-hide edging, and ditto for practice shields- but on the field of Honour and fighting for our Ladies' names, we should look that much more above grade.

Muchas gracias.

I also know VItus is in a continual state of experimentation with his shields, as well. Just about every other run contains the line, "I'm trying this, this time..."

I'd be leary of saying "Do this" if I didn't know, for sure, it would hold up long term, myself.

Sir Vitus is Infamous for his two to three word responces to questions that you could write a book in responce to...

Often, you'll see a huge essay of a question, and Sir Vitus will respond with "No."

You'll get used to it.

Dante della Luna wrote:Sir Vitus is Infamous for his two to three word responces to questions that you could write a book in responce to...

Often, you'll see a huge essay of a question, and Sir Vitus will respond with "No."

You'll get used to it.

And, when you type the question "what color?" you get back a friggin pamphlet from Vitus.

I think he just does it to be a contrarian, personally.

I would consider it very hazardous to make any assumptions about Sir Vitus at all.

Exactly.

I have to side with Vitus here.

I post a lot of insight and advice, suggestions and frankly encouragement but there are some things that are either two hard to explain *without a video) and somethings are simply proprietary information.

Go ask COKE for the formula.


Now having said that....lets be honest some people are not financially equipped to afford some things so they naturally want to try and make them. . So, having once been 'there' myself, I understand. That is why I am happy to advise or direct someone along the right path. We dont live forever and we do retire, ergo it makes sense to pass on information in bits and pieces. Those that are most motivated will study it and put it to good measure.

But holding onto necessary business information is not necessarily greed.

Greed is hoarding too much of something that you do not need. Like the rich man whos house is paid for, cars are paid for, pool and yaght paid for, kids college is paid for, retirement is redunantly bliss....and who still has 20 million in the bank doing nothing but acruing interest when it could help a lot of other people. Thats greed.


.

Do a search. I am pretty sure that I remember Sir Vitus doing a fairly long write up, step by step, with pictures a year or so ago.

TO utterly hijack this thread,

<i>
Greed is hoarding too much of something that you do not need. Like the rich man whos house is paid for, cars are paid for, pool and yaght paid for, kids college is paid for, retirement is redunantly bliss....and who still has 20 million in the bank doing nothing but acruing interest when it could help a lot of other people. Thats greed. </i>

If it's bearing interest, you know what that means? It means he lent it to the bank. You know what the bank does? Give the rest of us loans for housing, education, business, car...you name it. More money in the bank means that the next guy has an easier time paying for his house, car, pool yacht, kid's college, and retirement.

Putting your money in the bank is a very flexible way of getting money into the hands of those who need it. The downside is that it won't solve any particular problem, but it does provide substantial benefits for society at large.

Atherbridge wrote:Putting your money in the bank is a very flexible way of getting LOANS into the hands of those who WANT it and the banks approve of. The downside is that it won't solve any particular problem, but it does provide substantial benefits for society at large.

Sorry Atherbridge, I had to fix that for you.

I do understand how money in the bank clasicly generates more loans that the bank can give (since I believe they are still federally regulated to have a certain percentage in actual liquid assets and are federally limited in how much they can lend based on their assets if they want to be FDIC insured) but if the recent housing and credit-card loan fiasco has shown us, giving people a loan is not the same as giving them money.

And to stear back on topic. Sir Vitus has doen an exceptional amount of leg-work including personal investment in resources to develop a superior product that is above and beyond what most of us can achieve. But any of us can build the basic product using comonly available supplies. It becomes a tremendous disincentive to people to develop these technologies unless they can somehow recoup their costs. I for one would never ask Vitus for his 'secret recepie' but I might ask him for advice in laying up more conventional fiberglass reinforced wood shields. Who knows I might learn something and I might even find a new and better solution.

Sean

Sean

Francisco,

What is the problem? You asked how big the odds are that he will publish a tutorial. He answered with 0%. I can understand that you would also like his products since I would also like them but lack required funding at the moment. However to have an adequat shield is relatively simple and far cheaper then the products of Sir aVitus. They won't as long but will suffice while you guys either save up or develop your own shields.

With kind regards,

Max

An Atzinger-style edgeless shield is a Shelled -or "candy coated"- shield. The shell can only protect so much. This means that the quality of the shield blank is very, very important. For me to offer a shelled shield that would last a considerable length of time would make my products wayy out of reach for most people.

By this time next year I will be making vacuum-pressed shield blanks out of hardwood veneers. These shields will have a candy coating. They will last about ten times as long as the toughest shield I can make for $150 each. How much they will cost depends upon how much they cost to make.

Shelled shields have two distinct advantages.

1. When finished they look exactly like a medieval parchment/leather covered shield.

2. The coating allows for digs, holes and scratches to be filled with wood filler or Bondo body filler. This allows the shield to look like new right up to the day the wood inside the shell fails. This is what my own personal goal originally was. When the canvas cover to an aluminum shield gets tore, it's just not possible to repair the tear/hole. I like aluminum shields, I just hate canvas coverings because they cannot be repaired.

If my personal shields don't last that long I don't really care- I just want to keep them looking good right up until they totally fail.

The basic way to make an Atzinger shield is this-

Get a wooden shield. Candy coat it.

The best way for the average guy to do this is this-

Take a wooden shield blank and using a file and palm sander take off all the sharp edges. Then, find a company that does spray-on bedliners for light trucks. Keep your shield in a air-conditioned place for a few weeks so that it dries out completely and then take it to the bedliner guys. Have them spray the shield with like three coats tops, but make sure that they LEAVE THE SAND OUT OF THE COATING. Make sure to tell them to get the top edge of the shield really good.

After you pick up the shield, take it home and sand the front until it is smooth. This will be a bitch, but it's worth it. Use an orbital sander and be really conservative- once it's smooth STOP.

Coat the shield in bonding primer. Paint it. This shield will last a very long time and look great right up until the day it fails.

This is not the system I use. I'm not telling you what I use.

Sweet!

Danke.

Just a thought: If the durability of the covering on Aluminium shields is a concern, would powdercoating them not be an effective way to make what amounts to an ever-lasting shield? It would essentially require one to make stencils of their blazon and charges, but the end result would probably last until Judgment Day, no?

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:Just a thought: If the durability of the covering on Aluminium shields is a concern, would powdercoating them not be an effective way to make what amounts to an ever-lasting shield? It would essentially require one to make stencils of their blazon and charges, but the end result would probably last until Judgment Day, no?

No. It won't. Powdercoating gets scuffed just as easily as canvas gets ripped.

Shields just take too much punishment... and they will need repair.

Max Keeren wrote:Francisco,

What is the problem? You asked how big the odds are that he will publish a tutorial. He answered with 0%.

Max, as stated my problem wasn't with the "no"- I just misinterpreted the way in which he responded as being antagonistic. I've apologized both publicly and privately to Sir Vitus for it.

I believe all to be well.

Dante della Luna wrote:

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:Just a thought: If the durability of the covering on Aluminium shields is a concern, would powdercoating them not be an effective way to make what amounts to an ever-lasting shield? It would essentially require one to make stencils of their blazon and charges, but the end result would probably last until Judgment Day, no?

No. It won't. Powdercoating gets scuffed just as easily as canvas gets ripped.

Shields just take too much punishment... and they will need repair.

Damn.

It's all good.

An Atzinger-style edgeless shield is a Shelled -or "candy coated"- shield. The shell can only protect so much.

For example if you were to place one in your mouth, it would melt. However it is guaranteed not to melt in your hand.

-Justus

This has me wondering, now. Historically speaking, of course no one wanted their shield to fall apart on them DURING a battle. But over the longer-term, is there any indication as to whether shields were designed for maintainability / repairability, versus being treated as consumable items and designed for ease of production?

" I would consider it very hazardous to make any assumptions about Sir Vitus at all. "

Well, I assume if I leave my orange juice laying around, he'll drink it.....