The Armour Archive

when i started fighting I wanted to hang chainmaile from my helm so i made a mandrel and wound up some coat hangers, wove some chain and put it on my helm, there it has stayed for many years and served me well. Today i patched a few holes and decided it is time for a new camale. My question is do i remake it with the old coat hanger links or do i just order some shiny new aluminum from the ring lord http://www.theringlord.com/ (shameless plug) I guess what I'm asking is which will afford the most protection? i don't fight with a gorshet so i need the neck protection to be top notch. any advice would be great

thank you

Between those two options, I'd go with the coat hangers. The aluminum rings are shiny and all, but you'll mostly notice the shine as they catch the afternoon sun in a sparkly arc when they're torn off your helm by your opponent's blow. Aluminum will offer NO protection at all, and you'll be forever fixing holes. We have a fighter here who had his camail made of aluminum, and I've been steadily replacing it with steel when he brings it to me for repairs (which is often).
A better solution, since you're familiar with the Ringlord, is to order some galvy steel, or even stainless steel (if you're set on it being shiny). Both of those are stiffer than aluminum, so your rings will stay closed longer before needing repairs.

Don't use aluminum in order for your aventail to protect your neck it needs mass to soak the blows. The aluminum won't do that as well. It's also not as strong.

Go buy a roll of electric fence wire for the rings. It's galvanized so it'll turn grey but won't rust. Plus it's cheap and much less trouble then coat hangers.

Alternately buy wire or rings from TRL. Either 3/8 14ga or 5/16 16ga. Either stainless or galvy or bronze or brass but not aluminum or titanium you want the weight.

Oh and it's spelled gorget. Not that obvious if you've never seen it written before.

not all eletric fence wire is Galvy.
to be honest option is to purchase or trade for what your looking for.
depending on what size coat hangers you have been using 14 guage in 3/8 inch E 4in1
or 16 1/4 inch E4in1
some people use other weaves for avintails and such but I find E4in1 quick and easy.

check with you local SCA group or post over on theringlord.com/forum to see if there are other people making chainmail armour in your area.

an extra pair of hands make things go a lot faster with chainmail or better yeat save a few bucks on shipping and go in on a group order.

Use steel of any desired description, for aluminum is about the worst metal for application to a helmet. Titanium, in welded form, is better on a couple of counts: rather greater mass, and far greater strength.

http://weldedchainmail.com

For a very similar mass to titanium links but still in period metal, steel riveted. Unimpeachable for authenticity, not a great deal of investment in additional equipment, a dozen times the strength at least, five-eighths the weight of comparable butted because you can use considerably finer wire, and four times the manhours to make.

Lord Thomas the Black wrote:Between those two options, I'd go with the coat hangers. The aluminum rings are shiny and all, but you'll mostly notice the shine as they catch the afternoon sun in a sparkly arc when they're torn off your helm by your opponent's blow. Aluminum will offer NO protection at all, and you'll be forever fixing holes.
SNIP

Just out of curiosity, would this still be the case if the aluminum links were riveted or welded. Presuming, that is, that the maille were not being worn for protection but just for looks (ie. an aventail over and in addition to a proper gorget, where the aventail is only used to complete the look of the helm.)

for me i don't use a gorget, I have a fat neck and it restricts movement.

Mac T, if it's depending from a helmet, you might as well have the mass anyway, as an anti-concussive measure. Your helm would be harder to accelerate, and that's the important bit. If you're economizing on weight, look to shave five pounds off somewhere else, like swapping a butted shirt for a riveted one.

My helm already weighs enough all by its lonely, it doesn't need the extra mass. And once I have gotten the kit that I want, there will be very little room anywhere else in it to save weight (mostly spring steel and hardened leather, I can't lighten it much more than that.)

But that isn't the point. To me, at least in the context of the SCA, maille will add nothing to the protective nature of ones kit. It's great against ACTUAL cutting edges, but we don't use those. To put it bluntly, for what we do, maille isn't armor, its man jewelery. If it adds nothing to the defensive aspect of the kit (except perhaps for the mass of a helm as you pointed out) then we are only wearing it because it looks good, or because that's what our persona would have worn. So bearing that in mind, even if a riveted or welded steel hauberk weighs as little as say 5 lbs (which it likely doesn't), whereas the aluminum one weighs 4 lbs, then the aluminum one seems to be the better choice. I mean every pound counts, right? Especially on airplanes and the like.

So to repeat my question, if riveted or welded (in say 16 ga as opposed to the 12 ga commonly used for butted aluminum maille), would aluminum be strong enough to withstand the rigors of SCA combat?

So to repeat my question, if riveted or welded (in say 16 ga as opposed to the 12 ga commonly used for butted aluminum maille), would aluminum be strong enough to withstand the rigors of SCA combat?

Riveted or welded maille is always going to be much more durable and usually lighter than butted maille. It's usually lighter because you can use much thinner wire and it is still much stronger than butted maille. Butted maille has to be made from very thick wire to keep from pulling apart.

Butted maille was also probably never used for combat in period.

I would go with a riveted aventail.

Steve

Mac,

To answer your question...yes....and no.
The problem with AL rings in 16g or smaller is that the overlap for rivetting has to be almost twice the distance as for steel. The AL being softer tends to split towards the cut ends due to the stresses of the rivet, at least in my experience. Therefore you would lose any advantage gained by going with the smaller gauge.

Also the AL being softer tends to deform when struck between two rigid surfaces, e.g. sword/helm. This will lead to more frequent repairs as the AL doesn't tend to "spring back" into shape as well as steel.

You might consider a combination of rivetted and solid ring mail this would be more historically correct, easier to maintain and very close to the weight of an all AL mail.

As to mail being "man jewelry" I began fighting SCA in '82 and in mail for 14 years during all of that time I only got one injury and that was when someone fell on me planting their knee on my chest and breaking a rib. When worn correctly, that is the mail fitted loosely to the body, the mass of the mail does an excellent job of slowing the impact and dissipating the energy from a blunt force blow. Of course, I'm in Meridies and we're all a bunch of wussies who hit with the force of a moth fart!


Best regards,
WoW

Thank you William,

It sounds like riveted aluminum is out, but what of welded? Would the aluminums tendency to be less "springy" cause it to break apart or just stay in a deformed shape?

I have never heard of welded aluminum maille.

Steve

Maybe from Gordon Osterstrom, above. Occasionally posts here re mail as Knuut. Welding aluminum is a matter of preventing aluminum oxides forming -- they don't stick. So, like titanium, it has to be under shield gas.

Which is a darn sight more fiddly than spot- or resistance-welding in steel. The result is still more squashy than steel would be. Aluminum is soft like lead.

Mac T, are you regularly taking flights about the globe and toting armor with you? You've maybe hinted at it --

So bearing that in mind, even if a riveted or welded steel hauberk weighs as little as say 5 lbs (which it likely doesn't), whereas the aluminum one weighs 4 lbs, then the aluminum one seems to be the better choice. I mean every pound counts, right? Especially on airplanes and the like.

-- but I'd understand your desired design better if this were indeed a design requirement. Some guys are just too darn laconic when they post.

To me, air portable = gambeson body defense teamed with 14th-c gamboised cuisses, hard forearms, limb joints, and gaunts. Plastic reinforcements in the gambeson and cuisses as and if needed. The bascinet would be about the heaviest component besides the shield, and non-shield weapons forms would spare you that.

Konstantin the Red wrote:Mac T, are you regularly taking flights about the globe and toting armor with you? You've maybe hinted at it --

-- but I'd understand your desired design better if this were indeed a design requirement. Some guys are just too darn laconic when they post.

No, I don't fly around the world much... yet. You see I have an employment opportunity that will see me flying back and forth across the country, and the ability to bring my armor with me while not having to pay insane amounts of excess baggage fees would be a good thing.

Even without the airlines though, there HAVE been times when I have had to walk some distance to fighting practice, and like an airline, here too every pound counts. Distances that would normally seem trivial (ie when you are carrying nothing heavier than your boots) suddenly take on a new meaning when schlepping an armor bag, shield and weapons.

Konstantin the Red wrote:To me, air portable = gambeson body defense teamed with 14th-c gamboised cuisses, hard forearms, limb joints, and gaunts. Plastic reinforcements in the gambeson and cuisses as and if needed. The bascinet would be about the heaviest component besides the shield, and non-shield weapons forms would spare you that.

That all sounds good in theory, but my persona likely would have worn maille in addition to all that, and so I choose to do so if feasible, even if only for appearances sake. I will happily wear riveted steel maille if even welded aluminum proves problematic, but as welded aluminum is likely to be lighter even than fine gauge riveted steel, I just wanted to keep my options open in the interest of shaving off ounces for a part of my kit that will really only be there to look cool.

Furthermore, welded aluminum may be within my capabilities to craft myself if it is unavailable elsewhere, whereas riveted steel I am likely to just buy from somebody who knows what they're doing. So in a way I am trying to save money as well as weight, but weight is the primary factor.

By the way, in the interest of NOT being laconic (color me stupid, but I actually had to look that up - LOL) my finished kit will eventually consist of:

- Athletic Cup (obviously - maybe a Nutty Buddy, I love those things)
- Maille chausses (wi full maille sabatons) over
- Gamboissed cuisses
- Spring Steel Poleyns
- Splinted Leather Greaves
- Thigh length gambeson (wi full length sleeves)
- Thigh length maille hauberk (likely wi 3/4 sleeves)
- Wisby style Coat of Plates
- Heavy Leather or "Brigandine" style Gorget
- Spring Steel Spaulders
- Spring Steel Couters
- Splinted Leather Vambraces
- Slat Back Kettle Helm (also Spring Steel if I can get it)
- Maille Aventail
- Wisby style Gauntlets (hopefully Stealth style)

Added to this will be:

- Rattan Ballock Dagger
- Battle Axe and Halberd
- Siloflex Sword (as per an Oakshotte XIIIa for those familiar with such things)
- Aluminum Folding Center Grip Heater (as per Duke Paul's design)

Much to schlepp around as it is, but every item probably wouldn't make it to every event. I figure that the less I can get it all to weigh, the more likely I am to have it with me when its needed. Even the coolest gear isn't very cool if you've left it on the living room floor rather than bothering to bring it.

Mac Thamhais wrote:But that isn't the point. To me, at least in the context of the SCA, maille will add nothing to the protective nature of ones kit.

It WILL slow a blow down, if it's good mail (eg not 18ga rings with a 3/4" ID), and if it's heavy enough.. The 2 most likely places of it being effective are on the bottom of a helmet, as an aventail, or hanging off your back and covering your tush from an ass wrap.

For the neck... I don't think it's sufficient protection on it's own. I sure as hell wouldn't have JUST mail covering my throat, but then it's one of the areas I get paranoid about.

Another advantage I see to it, and one that was pointed out to me by others is that a heavier aventail/camail will help lower the center of gravity on a helmet to a degree. I can see where this would be just plain more comfortable to wear, as well as mild-moderately helpful in combat, where lowering your center of gravity all over is generaly a good idea.

That said... I've fooled with aluminum mail.

I had a riveted coif from Von Sussen, and I've piddled at making my own. My experiences with that lead me to believe that the cost associated with AL vs. it's durability, how filthy it is, etc. You wouldn't be happy with it for SCA use at all, even strictly decorative purposes.

If weight were that big an issue... I would just save up and get welded Ti from Knut.

Many thanks mattmaus,

I had actually considered the Ti from Knut, I've just been trying to determine if the aluminum would do the job, just cheaper. If it actually won't do the job then it don't matter how cheap it is, does it?

Thanks again.

One of my 'foolin' events involved whacking at scrap from the von sussen coif with an old roofers knife (bout as long as a seax, but about half as thick/heavy).

Set 1.5" styrofoam on the ground, coif on that, and WHACK!

Single handed blow was shearing 3-5 rings. Some of them completely cleaved in 2.

Doesn't apply much to SCA combat... but anywhere your mail rested on the edge of a ridgid plate, then got whacked with rattan... blown rings, and lots of them.

Aluminum is rattan fodder and won't last you very long.

I would recommend cutting weight somewhere else, like your hauberk and chausses.

Riveted: $1000, ~25lb.
Welded Steel: $1000+, ~25lb.
Welded Titanium:, $2000+, ~12 - 13lb.
Welded Steel Mesh ('Butcher Mesh'): $750+, ~12 - 13lb.
Welded Titanium Mesh: $2000+, 5 - 8lb.

If you're going from a 50 pound butted harness just by going riveted you're saving 20 pounds. If money's not an issue you can save almost 40 pounds, as compared to a pound or so at the risk of your neck.

If you want as authentic looking as you can get (doesn't sound like it if you're thinking aluminum) then go with riveted. If you don't mind skimping a little for weight then I'd say go with the welded steel mesh. Depending on where you get it you can get a full suit for under $1000.

-Ben

Excess baggage charges, got it.

Yeah, you're going for that 1340s-1360s layered look. This would definitely not be the frequent flier harness, though -- at that point I would substitute a gambeson to the knees for all the body armor, every bit of it. Any mandatory reinforcements being a given, and in some weight-saving material too.

Definitely go with the Nutty Buddy -- with what you love. Well armored nuts are happy nuts, and there's that whole "hope of sons and heirs" thing. Even if you catch a mean one rising from the very turf and your cup comes out of its jock in two halves when you recover enough composure to assess the damage, it will still have served honorably and successfully. Probably only happen in non-haburgeon circumstances though -- you're not quite describing a full hauberk in your mail items. I've always understood the 'berk proper to come to the kneecaps.

Those Spartans -- they were laconic. "We can all fight in the shade!" quotha.