Observation based on effigy studies

[Niall]

I think that last sketch Mac put up is very plausible. Only instead of buckles you have lacing. I was even thinking, maybe the whole back panel is leather that riveted up under the outside of the leg.

For the Churburg legs with the line of rivets on the inside, it could be a small flap of leather riveted on for lacing, like on the top of the cuisse for pointing. I think perhaps the Lichtervelde image may show just that - where the lacing is not directly on the metal cuisse.

Pure speculation - would lacing be more comfortable in the saddle? Less cumbersome? Being in the saddle would eliminate the fear of the lacing being cut? Would being in a tournament, jousting, eliminate the need for a rear metal plate, so leather would work fine?



**edited to add last line

[Peikko]

Why?

Lacing is shown in the Pembridge and Lichtervelde effigies.


Effingham

Ah...I was unclear. I assumed you were suggesting this as a strapping method for that specific piece...riveted in the churburg example, as the existing rivets suggest. As for Pembridge and Lichtervelde examples, while I am uncertain that this is what is represented, it is plausible.

[Effingham]

Mac, thanks!

That looks pretty much exactly (pretty much exactly?!?) like what I'm thinking of.

I've always had a problem with cuisses wanting to pull away, and I think with a more full wraparound done this way, they would actually fit better and stay where I want them to be.

Johann -- no problem, I was being a bit ambiguous.


Effingham

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

Kenrick et Killkeny,

As far as I can tell the primary function of the crest line in the front of a greave is to look good. It's like the crease in your pant leg. The only place where it really needs to be that shape is just under your knee, and even here the crest does not have to be sharp. It just looks better when it's sharp. So why not just run a sharp crest all the way down to the instep?..... And while we're at it, let's run a crest all the way out to the toes of the sabotons! The crests on the feet will have nothing to do with anatomy, and no conceivable defensive function, but they look great!

Fashion will always rule, so long as function is not much impaired.

Mac

*blink blink*

*smacks head for being a dork and responding before having his morning coffee...*

[Chris Gilman]

Perhaps this has been pointed out and I missed it, but has anyone considered that you do not need to strap and unstrap cuisses to don and doff them? Could not the laces be just an adjustment and there was no need to lace or unlace them once they where fit.

[sha-ul]

Perhaps this has been pointed out and I missed it, but has anyone considered that you do not need to strap and unstrap cuisses to don and doff them? Could not the laces be just an adjustment and there was no need to lace or unlace them once they where fit.

To your knowledge, in period did they point the legs to a pair of trousers which could simply be slid on then cinched? I am actually working on some hidden leg armour for my harness& had the thought of pointing the cuisses& knees to say a pair of denim shorts cinched& then pull on a loose fitting pair of trousers over that.(for the look of a half harness and my legs are fugly)

[Chris Gilman]

If the legs are hung correctly, you do not need to "cinch" them. The tighter you make the cuisse, the more the leg armour wants to creep down your leg.

[Mac]

Perhaps this has been pointed out and I missed it, but has anyone considered that you do not need to strap and unstrap cuisses to don and doff them? Could not the laces be just an adjustment and there was no need to lace or unlace them once they where fit.

Chris,

This sounds good, but it doesn't work as well as you might think. By the time you put on your sabatons and greaves, you can't your leg through the tight spot in the closed cuisses. You could put the sabatons and greaves on *after* the cuisses, but that is more difficult.

Toby Capwell and I examined this question while we were pondering the lack of visible fastenings on many of the English effigies of the early 14th c.

Mac

[chef de chambre]

If the legs are hung correctly, you do not need to "cinch" them. The tighter you make the cuisse, the more the leg armour wants to creep down your leg.

If you are wearing cased greaves that fit you, and there is a locating pin, and the greaves are properly strapped, this is untrue. Locating pins appear in 14th century effigies - not all, but on many later 14th century ones.

[Chris Gilman]

If the legs are hung correctly, you do not need to "cinch" them. The tighter you make the cuisse, the more the leg armour wants to creep down your leg.

If you are wearing cased greaves that fit you, and there is a locating pin, and the greaves are properly strapped, this is untrue. Locating pins appear in 14th century effigies - not all, but on many later 14th century ones.

Sorry to disagree, but it is true. Gravity acting on two cones (Thigh and cuisse).
The scenario you out line prevents them from creeping down, but they still want to. I would put forth this is why there is a pin.
It has not been my experience that cinching the cuisse helps to keep them in place. Just the opposite, it makes them want to loosen and the only way they can do this is by moving down the “coneâ€

[Mark Griffin]

One bit of evidence about the table top effigies referenced above is that these were seriously wealthy people. So the worry about paying people to lace you into a harness doesn't really affect them. They had paid or indentured servants to do the work, a few extra minutes spent lacing your master in wouldn't be a problem to them.

[Konstantin the Red]

And Mark G for the RESURRECT-O-THREAD.

While we take a moment of silence in Effingham's memory. Looks like only the good die young.