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Looking for information on this CoP
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:20 pm
by Thaddeus
I am looking for any articles or information on this find.
I seem to recall something about it being dug up by a non archeologist. Perhaps that is incorrect.
In particular I am interested to know if anyone has done any recreations of this rig and what they turned out looking like.
Thanks all.
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:29 pm
by integral arms
this is a pic I have saved of an interpretation of this style of COP. its what my newbie fighter is having me make for her, in addition to the work discussed in the "Scale Gauntlets" thread. as you can see the artist has the pectoral plate outside of the fabric.
anyone know why my image didnt work?
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:52 pm
by white mountain armoury
Thats what I hope to be in for pennsic.
Dont have any info to offer you. I
ts new enough where reconstructions are likley rare.
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:19 pm
by marcus the pale
integral arms wrote:this is a pic I have saved of an interpretation of this style of COP. its what my newbie fighter is having me make for her, in addition to the work discussed in the "Scale Gauntlets" thread. as you can see the artist has the pectoral plate outside of the fabric.
Ive always wondered how that COP would fare in an SCA setting, seems like that upper chest plate would restrict arm movement. But then, I R NOOB.
marcus
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:48 pm
by AL
This piece was auctioned off at Czerniacs or Hermanns Historica a few years back.
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:16 pm
by bairdec
integral arms wrote:anyone know why my image didnt work?
'Cause you left "?v=0" at the end of the link. The link needs to end in an image format; i.e .jpg, .bmp, .png, or .gif. If you get a site that adds .dll to the middle of the url, you'll need to get the image isolated so that isn't part of the link.
What is this image from? It looks like an Osprey illustration. I'm thinking the guy looks like a Hungarian because of the shield.
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:25 pm
by InsaneIrish
bairdec wrote:integral arms wrote:anyone know why my image didnt work?
'Cause you left "?v=0" at the end of the link. The link needs to end in an image format; i.e .jpg, .bmp, .png, or .gif. If you get a site that adds .dll to the middle of the url, you'll need to get the image isolated so that isn't part of the link.
What is this image from? It looks like an Osprey illustration. I'm thinking the guy looks like a Hungarian because of the shield.
Osprey book. Germany at war 1300-1500.
As to that rig? I think the illustration is a bit off. The single metal chest piece is to big in that pic. AND I don't think they would have cut a big hole in the outer layer to expose that breastplate.
If that single plate were shorter, stopping half way down the ribs I think it would work fine.
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:45 pm
by Thaddeus
The original which good ol Angus M based his Illo on.
[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/thaddeus/effigy/knight1_sm.jpg[/img]
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:59 pm
by white mountain armoury
Thats anotehr gem from Bamburgh Catherdral if I recollect.
Always been a fav as well.
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:24 pm
by michael stuart
O my goodness, what are those chains for?
Now you know the rest of the story...
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:45 pm
by Baron Alcyoneus
InsaneIrish wrote:Osprey book. Germany at war 1300-1500.
As to that rig? I think the illustration is a bit off. The single metal chest piece is to big in that pic. AND I don't think they would have cut a big hole in the outer layer to expose that breastplate.
It reinforces the COP and goes on top, as the pic that Thaddeus gave us shows.
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:26 pm
by Kilkenny
white mountain armoury wrote:Thats anotehr gem from Bamburgh Catherdral if I recollect.
Always been a fav as well.
Proportions on that sculpture are insanely off. I wouldn't try to use it as anything more than a general guide to some stylistic elements. Of course, I am free to criticize, being a hamfisted wood carver
Seriously, I wouldn't try to take that relief as a guide for any proportions - the breastplate as shown would make a fine gift to someone I was going to be fighting against
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 pm
by white mountain armoury
Many of the proportions of german effigies and similar sculptures are off.
Still one could make a decent replica based of that piece.
Dont look at it as a breastplate but as a reinforcement to a cote of plates.
The heart shaped plate is not the sole defence, its simply a large central plate on a cote of plates affixed to the outside.
The top image I believe would have those plates on the inside of a textile covering.
The covering would have slits for the gaurd chains.
In certain art you will see liveries with crecent shaped cuts to allow the gaurd chains to pass through.
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:25 pm
by Sean Powell
Without a forensic analysis of the surface of the effigy looking for silver gilding vs paint I don't see any way to tell if the effigy is supposed to have a fabric coverd breastplate or not. The osprey illustration is one possible interpretation.
The extant one in the first post however shows large headed rivets on the outside, implying that it was probably fabric or leather covered.
Someone once questioned the authenticity of the museum pieces citing the conditions of the discovery. I think that if a forger was going to attempt to pass off a fake they would have assembled the chest rivets to the inside to match the common construction theory rather then choose a speculative all-fabric covered version. That in itself lends credence to it in my mind.
Sean
Edited for clarity
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:54 pm
by white mountain armoury
Sean, are you talking about both pieces? or just about the carving?
I am simpluy making a guess in regards to both pieces.
I see the first image at the top of the page as a cop plates that would have been inside a textile of some type.
The carving as a cop with an exterior plate.
Again both guesses.
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:19 pm
by Sean Powell
white mountain armoury wrote:Sean, are you talking about both pieces? or just about the carving?
I am simpluy making a guess in regards to both pieces.
I see the first image at the top of the page as a cop plates that would have been inside a textile of some type.
The carving as a cop with an exterior plate.
Again both guesses.
Adam,
Sorry, wandering thoughts. I was talking about the carving that was the inspiration for the Osprey book in the first paragraph and the actual museum piece in the second. I'll go back and edit it to be more clear.
Sean
Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:56 am
by Kerry Pratt
From the Hermann Historica Catalogue, Auction 52...
There website is at
http://www.hermann-historica.com/
SCHUTZWAFFEN
Lot Nr.3641
A coat of plates
from Hirschstein Castle at Passau, circa 1350. Preserved fragments of a Gothic coat of plates, consisting of a breastplate with four attached weapon chains, 30 plates for the protection of the lower body sides and back as well as one shoulder plate. Cleaned, perfectly conserved, excavation discovery.
The breastplate (28 x 24 cm, and 1.2 to 2 mm thick) is surrounded on the outside by thirteen flat-headed rivets for attaching it to a cloth support. In the middle of the plate, there are two of the original four ring loops with decorative iron rosettes for attaching the weapon chains. There are four weapon chains attached, two with completely preserved hooks with decorative notches. Each chain has an iron bar on the end. A star mark stamped into the reverse side.
The cambered plates are of different shapes, some still with preserved attachment rivets. There is also a fragment with a preserved bolt-shaped latch, and a heavily curved shoulder plate with an off-set rim.
Discovered in the ruins of Hirschstein Castle at Irsham, Passau District in Lower Bavaria. The fortress was in the possession of the Knight Zachreis Hader when it was destroyed in the 1367 - 1374 feud with Prince-Bishop Albert III of Passau. The pieces of armor were protected by a layer of ash in the interior of the main building. Comes with comprehensive documentation of the Hader family and Hirschstein Castle, along with photos of the pieces as they were found.
Extremely rare type of armor. Only a few, fragmentary pieces been found anywhere before now. In particular, the breastplate with the attached weapon chains had only been known from early illustrations and funerary monuments. The well-documented circumstances of the discovery are also extraordinary, allowing the piece to be placed in both time and space. This is certainly one of the most significant coat of plates remaining from the 14th century, and it will play a central role in future publications on the development of knightly protective body armour.
Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:32 pm
by Thaddeus
Awesome thanks!