Questions about materials for armor

[ravingbantha]

I've been doing alot of readin around and such and hope after I move to mighigian I can get into learning how to make armor. My goal is to one day creat my 'perfect' suit. I know more or less what I want it to look like, but made from what?

For those in the know, what would be the ideal metal to use for armor? I don't plan on wearing iron armor, but what suggestions do you guys have for a type. I would prefer a lightweight metal that is going to be at least rust resistant, and can take a good pounding, something that could withstand real combat.

Thanks in advance

[don]

To better help you; if we knew what you had in mind for your "perfect suit", we could offer more/better advise.

Steel can be painted, blued, oiled, blackened/seasoned (like a cast iron skillet) or, enameled to protect it from rusting. By doing a russeted finish on the steel (info is in the essay section) your doing a "controlled" rusting which protects the metal.

Brass, bronze and, copper can be left to oxidize on there own or with the right solutions/chemicals and/or the application of heat can be made to turn various colours. Then theres aluminum, titainium and some of the other ium's.

Waxed leather or resin impregnated material is definately rust resistant, but is not metal (I've read of paper armour, basicly paper masche using resin instead of flour/water ).

Sorry, but more info might give you a better answer. Another thing to consider is weather you want strictly a "show piece" or not (think low-rider v. 4X4)

[Konstantin the Red]

Remember too that you would be building plate armor, which necessarily has some weight to it -- and NOT by any means an aerospace component, in which weight is an enemy to be fought with every means imaginable. You're not trying to fly away. So be only reasonably concerned with your armour's overall weight, even though you're that guy with the herniated discs whose loadbearing ability from the hips upwards is severely compromised. Your legs, not so much. They won't be as tough to engineer. Though the nature of the knee injuries you've mentioned but not described in your earlier thread about the breastplate you're thinking of trading in on something lighter -- well, please say more. Especially about what your doctor says your knees need in order to stay healthy.

Overall max weight would be around sixty to sixty-five pounds -- for the normally disced.

I've mentioned quilted armor before, in that earlier thread, so I'll let it rest.

Stainless steel achieves lightness of weight by being usable at roughly two gauge numbers thinner than comparable strength and stiffness in mild steel. Spring steel can be heat treated to be even stiffer than stainless, so you can gain at least one more gauge number's advantage -- at quite a premium in price, as spring is trickier to work and harder to hammer. Few pro armorers are working in this material yet. Per SCA regs, they don't make spring steel helmets ultra thin; instead they are building spring steel helmets to be impervious to anything much less than a Barret Light Fifty shooting AP. Like, dent proof.

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

I've been doing alot of readin around and such and hope after I move to mighigian I can get into learning how to make armor. My goal is to one day creat my 'perfect' suit. I know more or less what I want it to look like, but made from what?

For those in the know, what would be the ideal metal to use for armor? I don't plan on wearing iron armor, but what suggestions do you guys have for a type. I would prefer a lightweight metal that is going to be at least rust resistant, and can take a good pounding, something that could withstand real combat.

Thanks in advance

With those qualifications, you have really narrowed it down yourself.

Stainless spring steel

[ravingbantha]

thanks for the replies and advise. I have taken it all into account, I won't have a full head to toe suit of armor, there will be some leather and most likely padding placed in there to help rediuce the weight. On a side note, my back problem is not a herniated disk, it's a bone spur that's giving me the problem.

Mostly I was kinda looking at what material Armorsmiths of the 12th-16th centuries would have loved to have available to equip thei lords with. Stainless Spring Steel seems to be the way to go. Now I just need to look over some designes and figure out how things may work. And then hope I can get my back and knees taken care of, but I guess that's going to have to be a matter for my lawyer to work out, since my employer didn't want to own up

[Russ Mitchell]

The gent advising you on padded garments is going you more of a favor than you know. Listen to him. For several reasons:

1. Doing foundation garments helps you develop an "eye" to see how a 2d pattern turns into a 3d shape.
2. Even as a bone spur, you need more protection than the average guy.
3. Unless you go with a total alwhite harness, a stout padded garment will help the metal ride better on your body. (Seriously, if I'm wearing just mail, blousing at the belt helps. If I'm wearing a jack or equivalent under it, I don't even bother, it rides so much better.)

Spring, whether stainless or not, is so much lighter than either leather or mild that it's laugh-inducing. It turns out that I"m celebrating my new job with a baby rather than a new suit of armor, but if I were starting a full suit, I'd go spring, and never look back. (Though I blacken or russet *everything* I wear, as artwork shows it being supercommon in my area.)

[ravingbantha]

I've done some image searches on the web abd haven't turned up much, what does russet armor look like? I don't reall care to much for the super shiney look, I like some of the other colors I've seen in historical photos and may be interested in russet.

[Russ Mitchell]

It's a warm, slightly-shiny brown, if done well. Actually looks very nice.

[sha-ul]

Spring steel can be heat treated to be even stiffer than stainless, so you can gain at least one more gauge number's advantage -- at quite a premium in price, as spring is trickier to work and harder to hammer. Few pro armorers are working in this material yet.

just an fyi, there are some armourers on this board that make& sell spring for prices that are similar to their stainless lines, because in the softened state, the spring works much quicker& easier than stainless, so that even with heat treating& material cost factored in, have similar time investments as stainless.

[Konstantin the Red]

It's a warm, slightly-shiny brown, if done well. Actually looks very nice.

Ask if the gun shop can show you pictures of a browned gun barrel if not such a barrel itself. 18th-c. blackpowder stuff. And, it seems, early 19th for British military:

http://www.militaryheritage.com/browning.htm

Recipe for browning chemicals about halfway down the page. And this page of notes:

http://www.americanlongrifles.com/WorkShop_Barrel_Browning.htm

[Chris G.]

Mostly I was kinda looking at what material Armorsmiths of the 12th-16th centuries would have loved to have available to equip thei lords with.

Also, the qualities/quantities of metal available to smiths changed with time, especially over a period of 5 centuries. The styles of armour common during these times also reflect what raw materials the smiths had to work with.

[Hrolfr]

I've been doing alot of readin around and such and hope after I move to mighigian I can get into learning how to make armor. My goal is to one day creat my 'perfect' suit. I know more or less what I want it to look like, but made from what?

For those in the know, what would be the ideal metal to use for armor? I don't plan on wearing iron armor, but what suggestions do you guys have for a type. I would prefer a lightweight metal that is going to be at least rust resistant, and can take a good pounding, something that could withstand real combat.

Thanks in advance

3 questions

#1 SCA, live steel, boffer, what type combat?
#2 Where in Michigan?
#3 What countryis your persona from?

[ravingbantha]

3 questions

#1 SCA, live steel, boffer, what type combat?
#2 Where in Michigan?
#3 What countryis your persona from?

1: I mostly due Boffer fighting these days due to some injuries keeping me away from heavy fighting till the doc gives me an all clear. But I want something that could take a solid hit from a real weapon. After all why not get th very best.

2: Grand Rapids, Mi

3: my persona will most likely be something along the lines of Western europe, I like several styles just working on the exact region.

[don]

Here's something I found on Russet/Browning/Blueing; as when I google-fu imaged it, I was left scratching my head.

Bluing (Blueing) is a controlled rusting process. It was originally used to camouflage a bright surface and to protect against rust. Special rusting mixtures are applied and allowed to rust, then they are brushed off and the steps are repeated until the desired colour is reached. In Europe this centuries old technique was first called russetting and then browning. Later on, a modified browning solution was introduced that resulted in a blackish-blue finish and as a result the name bluing came in to vogue.

Hope it helps

[don]

You may have noticed the thread about various metal finishes already, there are some pics from Halberd that show the differences

[ravingbantha]

Spring steel can be heat treated to be even stiffer than stainless, so you can gain at least one more gauge number's advantage -- at quite a premium in price, as spring is trickier to work and harder to hammer. Few pro armorers are working in this material yet.

just an fyi, there are some armourers on this board that make& sell spring for prices that are similar to their stainless lines, because in the softened state, the spring works much quicker& easier than stainless, so that even with heat treating& material cost factored in, have similar time investments as stainless.

which armoroers do?

[Konstantin the Red]

2: Grand Rapids, Mi

3: my persona will most likely be something along the lines of Western europe, I like several styles just working on the exact region.

Looks like the Canton of Rimsholt, Kingdom of the Middle, is your local chapter.

http://www.midrealm.org/rimsholt/

Which "several styles" have made it to your short list?

[ravingbantha]

Well i don;t really have a 'short list' for styles specificly, there are alot of elements from different sources that I like. Right now I am trying to sort fantasy from fiction (which is a drawn out process).

I can say that I like half chestplate look (plate covering the area down to the ribs). I've never like the head to toe armor look, I prefer an armored with clothing/leather/furs look. I also like the look of large war belts, the kinda you see conan wearing. as for elbows and knee protection, I will most likely go with hidden ones there.

As for helms, I lean more with Barbute style helms, I like the look of Sallets but the lack of vision in one is a huge turn off for me. I also prefer horseman pauldrons over other forms of shoulder protection. I also like the roman 'shirting' that goes all the way around the body. I also like the raised collar/gorget that Games workshop uses for thier Warhammer Warpriests.

As I siad I have alot of prefrences, but most of the pics I've seen are not historical pics, thier fantatsy pics. So I am trying to find what, if any, historical presidences are out there for what I like.

I do like the Norse Culture, I jsut don't like chain mail or Lamallar as a primary form of defence.

[Maelgwyn]

Yes, the elements you like seem to come from a wide variety of cultures and do not seem at all likely to work together in a single kit. You may have to pick and choose a bit. That being said, there are a wide variety of armours and armour pieces that could go with a 15th century German or Italian man-at-arms portrayal based around a nice open-face sallet or barbute. That might be a good place to start.

As for materials, 410 alloy spring stainless steel would seem to be your best bet. I have only begun working with it but it offers nearly the same rust resistance as a 300-series stainless without the rapid work-hardening that otherwise makes armourers hate stainless, and with the heat-treating strength of a 1050 or a 4130 alloy spring steel. I am using 22 gauge for most things and 16 gauge for the helm.

But I advise getting out to practice and fighting in loaner gear first, and then developing an armour plan to get your own kit together at a moderate cost with eventual replacement of the most critical pieces with fancier gear. Don't put off fighting until you get perfect armour, but don't keep fighting in cobbled-together gear once you have the time, money and experience to do better.

Conan and other fantasy heroes provide popular images of armoured warriors that capture the imagination, but the real heroes (and villains) of the medieval period wore real armour that was equally awesome, brutal and effective. Spend some more time looking at the armour in paintings, manuscripts and museums and I think you will find some new things to inspire you that Conan never dreamed about.

[ravingbantha]

thanks for the advise, I've been putting off getting involved in fighting for awhile for a number of reasons, mostly due to a move the wife and I thought was going to happen before Christmas, but now may not happen for a few months (she needs to get a job offer first).

As it stands I currently own the armor in the pic provided, now I have put it up for sale, but I doubt it will sell, which is fine, as it will mjost likely be cheaper for me right now. I have thougt about removing the lower lames, and wearing a COP under the chest armor. Basicly turning it into a modified version of this armor.

http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/heroic-armour.html

I have also wondered, in instead of going with a roman look, if it we posible to do a more Norse look by adding a large belt to this and using a helm and clothes that more fit in those lines. The last thing I am trying to decide upon is color, i've thought about Blueing the armor and adding a contrsating color with the clothes.

[Leopold der Wolf]

Get some sign aluminum and use goo begone/razor blades/paint scrapers to get all the sign flakes/glue/oil off.

its easy to shape, light and can be polished to a mirror finish if desired.

[Konstantin the Red]

As for the big prizefighters' belt -- well, nobody seems to have used it as an armor item in Western Europe. It's strictly Conan comics and D&D dwarves. It's seen some favor in SCA circles because it's a good way to make a kidney belt that is both efficient at delivering the mandated protection and stylish looking too.

Turning away from this big hard belt thingie with some regret, I end up adopting an array of plates for the kidneys and associated areas that is concealed within a gambeson, well buried in the quilting.

The easiest way to jazz up the color scheme is of course with the outer fabric of a gambeson.

Much of the rest of the harness' prettiness is likely to be in the helmet. If you go Viking armor, you're after a post-Dark Ages helmet, so consider staying away from cheek-pieces -- neither Roman nor Dark-Ages pointy -- trying for a more open fronted appearance in an SCA slatback or cage frame.

Now if you instead settle on a barbute, your "not white harness" preference gets plenty of genuine historical backing, on your body anyway. Limbs, I dunno. It's a fifteenth-century helmet, so a fifteenth-century brigandine makes a good torso defense. You may like Gothic cusped outlines best for articulation lames about your limbs' joints. Low-pro fanless knees and elbows -- I suppose there are very 15th-c. shapes for these, but I can't bring any to mind. Damned late for small-cop/gamboised-cuisse legs, though.

There wouldn't be that much opportunity to shave weight off the armor, though, with pieces appropriate with a barbute. 15th-c. harness was pretty platy for cavalry guys. Foot soldiers could use standalone gambesons, which would be light to schlep and thus desirable for you, and would still be contemporaneous with a barbute. The difficulty in weight reduction comes in limb armor. The typical SCA half leg is very likely to be what you'll use. You may be able to manage with minimal arm gear -- optional spaudlers (highly recommended when fighting in twohanded weapons forms anyway), the elbows, and mitten gauntlets with some length to their cuffs, such as those long-cuffed gaunts in the top pic on that Age of Armour page. And take another long look at the figure at upper left, the one with the sword, manhandling the ram, in the pic in the "Fascination With The Ancient World" section for how a standalone gambeson with shoulder bits might lie upon its wearer, while looking fifteenth century.

[ravingbantha]

Well i'm thinkgin something like what is on that site, is what I may go with, There's enough cloth in that outfit for my tastes.

I had also thought about doing something along the lines of The Winged Hussars, but my armor is abit wrong for what they used. One of the biggest issues whith their chest paltes is mine would be considered a footmans chestplate, since the lames open downwards.