The Armour Archive

PLEASE, THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE A PLASTIC HATE THREAD.

Purely from a SAFETY perspective, how many of you would trust your hands to thermoformed ABS for SCA style combat?

Assumptions:
The gauntlets are constructed to ground on the weapon.
The gauntlets have 1/8" of felt padding on the inside.
The gauntlets are riveted construction, and do not have any floating articulations.
The gauntlets are constructed from 1/8" ABS plastic.


I know that Kydex is the ninja material and I will probably get into it at some point. But the expense of Kydex is holding up progress, and I'd like try my hand (pun intended) at ABS first - but I want to end up with a usable set of hands.

I've done it in the past, and I was fine.

I had a strap break on some metal gaunts at an early gulf wars, and broke some metacarpals, but that is the only hand injury I have sustained.

I should also add that there is no plastic in my current rig besides helm foam (does that count as plastic?) and my cup.

f

Yes. Depending on the design.

I second what Nissan said. Its not the material, its the design WITH the material.

There are spring steel designs that I would not feel safe wearing.

Kenwrec Wulfe wrote:Its not the material, its the design WITH the material.

Oh, I agree, which is why I'm planning on the assumptions I listed.
It sounds like 1/8" ABS can take a hit perfectly well, based on what you're saying...

...so that leads me to wonder why it is that Kydex is the conventional wisdom, when it's four times the expense of ABS.

My understanding is that Kydex is easier to work with and holds up just as well.

I didn't realize it was that much more expensive.


.

Oh, yeah.... interstateplastics.com is the cheapest place I've found online ($50 min order last I checked) and it's $56.64 for a 4x8 of 0.125" ABS, but $213.44 for Kydex.

Not being a chemist or materials engineer, I think that ABS has greater impact resistence than Kydex. We'll know after someone has used ABS for as long as we've seen Kydex in service.

schreiber wrote:

Kenwrec Wulfe wrote:Its not the material, its the design WITH the material.

Oh, I agree, which is why I'm planning on the assumptions I listed.
It sounds like 1/8" ABS can take a hit perfectly well, based on what you're saying...

...so that leads me to wonder why it is that Kydex is the conventional wisdom, when it's four times the expense of ABS.

Easier to work, can be thinner (thus less bulky) and less prone to shattering in cold temps.

" Its not the material, its the design WITH the material. "

Very true.
I used to HATE coming up against folks wearing those "bearclaw" plastic gauntlets with the huge cuffs because you could NOT get them to take a forearm shot.
Not that they were cheating, but the things were just so OVERprotective they just didn't feel it, or assumed you had hit them in the hand/wrist.

Kydex / ABS
Modulus of elasticity 2482 MPa / 1931MPa
Impact resistance 961 J/m / 400 J/m

Nissan Maxima wrote:Kydex / ABS
Modulus of elasticity 2482 MPa / 1931MPa
Impact resistance 961 J/m / 400 J/m

And what are the temperature tolerances Mr. Scientist guy?

Kenwrec Wulfe wrote:

Nissan Maxima wrote:Kydex / ABS
Modulus of elasticity 2482 MPa / 1931MPa
Impact resistance 961 J/m / 400 J/m

And what are the temperature tolerances Mr. Scientist guy?

I've got slightly different numbers but essentially the same data at 23°C (73.4°F).

Not to say that I can't improve the modulus of elasticity of the ABS by using a glass reinforced compound but that's not necessarily good for impact resistance, tends to be more expensive and is difficult to locate in sheet form.

Please remember that 'kydex' is a brand name and there are a lot of chemical variations: kydex 100, kydex 101, kydex 107, kydex 115, ... kydex 6185, ... kydex T, Kydex V etc...

ABS is a chemical name that dosn't include processing information, manufacturer, compounding and blending and other relavent data.

Taken as a whole Kydex is somewhat better then ABS for armor purposes... especially for taking and holding a compound curve. I've worked with both for brigandines. Seeing as how we are talking gauntlets and have a general concensus that shape matters, how you get that shape and hold it will be important.

ABS gauntlets could be a cost competitive solution vs. Kydex but a pair of plastic gauntlets is maybe 4 sq-ft of plastic (8 pairs per sheet). 56.64/8=$7.08 for ABS vs 213.44/8=$26.68 for Kydex. There is a $20 material cost difference per pair. That might be important to some buyers.

People trust their hands to Sanoprene plastic cup hilts all the time. I don't see ABS being a catastropicly bad idea... but I like stainless and spring-steel for my fingers.

Sean

Edit: I read the original post again including the 1/8" felt padding and grounding on the weapon design criteria. I would have to check the specifics of the design but I strongly suspect that the material in question (either Kydex or ABS) will deflect enough under direct impact as to make bridging the hand and grounding to be insufficient. I would feel more comfortable if the design included 1/4" of more elastic padding to dampen and help distribute the impact.

YMMV

Sean (again)

I've had more troubles with ABS getting brittle over time than Kydex. I still doubt that I'd wear plastic on my hands, but others do.

Edit: I read the original post again including the 1/8" felt padding and grounding on the weapon design criteria. I would have to check the specifics of the design but I strongly suspect that the material in question (either Kydex or ABS) will deflect enough under direct impact as to make bridging the hand and grounding to be insufficient. I would feel more comfortable if the design included 1/4" of more elastic padding to dampen and help distribute the impact.

....good, this is good....

So, the initial idea was to make a gauntlet which is a fairly tight fit on the hand. Not bulky like the bear paws.
I plan to thermoform individual fingers into the articulations, and have a maximum of two articulations (perhaps even one). I hope to add a lot of rigidity to them this way, but more importantly, keep them low profile and less noticeable.
Another assumption I should have listed is that I will be articulating them so that the articulation(s) will lock closed on a weapon - essentially forming a double-thick layer of material where it overlaps.

But I hear what you're saying about deflecting... I just wanted to state that I'm thinking compound curves, bumps, and ridges everywhere on it.

Does ABS/Kydex really deflect more than spring 1050?

schreiber wrote:Does ABS/Kydex really deflect more than spring 1050?

Sounds interesting. I'll run some example numbers tomorrow.

Sean

I've worn the Claws for most of twenty years. Not so much with the injuries. I cut off the big cuffs, cause they did interfere with calibration.
I've owned a pair of kydex gaunts and destroyed them. My hands were very sore after a long day of fighting.
I'm sure it's a Your Mileage will Vary type of thing, but those are my experiences.

I now wear heavily padded harded leather gauntlets.

Alchemy Armory (now defunct?) used to make these giant 1/4" ABS gauntlets. The size and thickness were on purpose, and I still got hurt in them over a year and a half of great weapon fighting. If I was going to use another pair of ABS gaunts, I'd pad them with more than felt and I'd go at least 1/4" thick. The grounding out and riveted construction sound tempting but...

I'll stick with my 16ga fluted stainless gaunts, thanks. I like my fingers.

Wore my BeerClaws for years, never had an issue. Course, they went over lacrosse gloves, so the gloves _alone_ would have been enough at that point in time. I have no issues with ABS itself, I have more with the craptastic engineering some folks put into it, and clear ignorance of what it does in load situations. And it's proclivity for popping speedy or pop-rivets apart.

World's FUGLIEST Nuclear-proof hand protection

Slightly better

Ceawlin Alreding wrote:World's FUGLIEST Nuclear-proof hand protection

Yup.. beerclaws minus the nuclear cuff, that people either A) Used completely wrong, (calling it a hand, when it wasn't) or B) accused YOU of using wrong (calling it a hand when it wasn't).

Good lord, I miss Sir Ed. *sigh*

...and the look... Oh wait...

Nissan Maxima wrote:Yes. Depending on the design.

for low profile padding, use 1/4" (6mm-ish) neoprene.

As far as kydex is concerned here is the link to Wikipedia about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kydex

Some might try using a product sometimes known as arena board or puck board which is HDPE (High Density Poly E?) in a 1/4" thickness, 1/8" is too thin.

Don

don wrote:for low profile padding, use 1/4" (6mm-ish) neoprene.

As far as kydex is concerned here is the link to Wikipedia about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kydex

Some might try using a product sometimes known as arena board or puck board which is HDPE (High Density Poly E?) in a 1/4" thickness, 1/8" is too thin.

Don

On the subject of puck board be wary that it tends to become maliable in warmer temperatures in my experience. Wonderful and next to invincible in the cold though.

Arcane

Saburou wrote:Alchemy Armory (now defunct?) used to make these giant 1/4" ABS gauntlets. The size and thickness were on purpose, and I still got hurt in them over a year and a half of great weapon fighting. If I was going to use another pair of ABS gaunts, I'd pad them with more than felt and I'd go at least 1/4" thick. The grounding out and riveted construction sound tempting but...

I'll stick with my 16ga fluted stainless gaunts, thanks. I like my fingers.

Alchemy's gauntlets are HDPE not ABS (I've spent some time in his shop) and I've worn a pair of them for awhile and I've never had a problem, but then I don't tend to get hit on the hands a lot.

He uses the HDPE for all of his stuff, I believe largely due to the fact that it isn't particularly subject to problems with extreme's of temperature (IE it won't split or shatter in the cold, and as far as I can tell it doesn't get softer in the heat.)

My mistake, Mac. Thanks for the correction.

Sorry I need to chime in on this. I have fought in an ABS basket hilt and currently fight in Kidex clamshells for my spear work. the thickness of both materals were 1/4 inch. The Basket hilt criticaly failed when someone fighting sword and board hit it. it did not break anything but it hurt and I had to get a friend to cut the basket off. So no more ABS for me. It was in florida so the heat outside might have something to do with it but That does not matter to me I will not use it again. Now the Kidex is a dream to work with and I have abused the gauntlets on purpose to see what they can take. I have even run over them with a 98 grand caravan and they are still sound. Just my 2c

Justin Caradoc wrote:Sorry I need to chime in on this.

Don't apologize, that's exactly what I'm looking for!
It's sounding so far like I should just suck it up and pay the extra money to work with the ideal material.

What ever you decide to use; think about your local climate and where you plan to use them a majority of the time; cooler areas might need a material that stands up better to cold temps and vice versa.

Also, if you put a ninety degree bend in the plastic, your creating a weak spot in that area.

I wear my EGG gauntlets only when fighting spear - i appreciate the light weight.

Design-wise, their thumbs are not safe for polearm/axe/greatweapon fighting. I have injured myself using them.

I find that adding a tsuba and quillons to a weapon makes it safe to use with them - so some greatswords and my "ohshit" spearsman's backup weapons are OK.

design, not material.