The Armour Archive

hey all,
I am making a riveted hauberk and will use it to construct my kit! I found a picture of this helm an want to use it as the centerpiece of my kit. So i guess that means 1340's german. My kit won't be SCA. I am going for a tourney kit which means i want to make it absurdly ostentatious, big helm crest, etc. So i need help. Here are my questions:

Integrated coif, Y/n?
COP, Y/N? Any particular examples I should copy?
Arm defenses? Y/N? What kind, Cuir Boulli? splinted? Gutter?
Ailettes?
Padded Cuisses or splinted?
Chausses?
Greaves? Splinted, plate?
What type of shied? basic plank heater?
what type of tunic cut?
Any examples of belts, accessories, swords that would accompany?
Bascinet under the helm?
Cops, what type? soup can? tooled cuir boulli?
would a fur-lined cape be over the top?

Thanks for any help. An effigy might be good. I couldn't find any particularly german ones. I will probably be working on this kit for 2 or 3 years, so I am trying to get it right now.



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markrobertmitchell wrote:hey all,
I am making a riveted hauberk and will use it to construct my kit! I found a picture of this helm an want to use it as the centerpiece of my kit. So i guess that means 1340's german. My kit won't be SCA. I am going for a tourney kit which means i want to make it absurdly ostentatious, big helm crest, etc. So i need help. Here are my questions:

Integrated coif, Y/n?
COP, Y/N? Any particular examples I should copy?
Arm defenses? Y/N? What kind, Cuir Boulli? splinted? Gutter?
Ailettes?
Padded Cuisses or splinted?
Chausses?
Greaves? Splinted, plate?
What type of shied? basic plank heater?
what type of tunic cut?
Any examples of belts, accessories, swords that would accompany?
Bascinet under the helm?
Cops, what type? soup can? tooled cuir boulli?
would a fur-lined cape be over the top?

Thanks for any help. An effigy might be good. I couldn't find any particularly german ones. I will probably be working on this kit for 2 or 3 years, so I am trying to get it right now.



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Good lord, yes, a fur lined cape will be over the top, unless you are representing the highest classes and just sitting on a horse or chair.

No integrated coif, that was added much later, after the helms working life, by most reckonings.

CoP's were the most common armour for the fighting man for the 14th century and even into the 15th. You could use most any version of the CoP that you want.

Ailettes are on their way out in most places by your time period. They were used for heraldic display and by the 1340's surcotes and sheilds are doing most of that work.

For your arms and legs, cuir boulli was used as were splints. You will find however, that splints were used alot in Germany/Holy Roman Empire and cuir boulli more in Mediterranean adjacent areas. This is not to say they were not used in France and England. Padded cuisses were very common as were gutter type defenses.

The heater was the most common sheild in most of Western Europe for horsemen.

A tunic is a tunic is a tunic. However, if you mean surcote, there were a couple of different cuts in use simultaneously. What do you prefer? Short in front, long in back (very popular in Italy), hip length (popular in England), long front and back (popular all over)?

Bascinet or cervelliere under a great helm seems common.

For poleyns and couters you could see rondel types, soup can types or cuir boulli in effigies, often on the same person. They were in use simultaneously. It's up to what you like.

As far as accessories there are entire books devoted to the subject and that really depends on what culture and class you are protraying.

If you didn't find German effigies you weren't looking hard enough. Try a search for Guenther von Schwarzburg, Bamburg cathedral, Naumburg cathedral, Heinrich von Bickenbach, etc.

Thanks so much

No integrated coif, that was added much later, after the helms working life, by most reckonings.

I meant coif integrated into the hauberk, but I guess in reality there would be no coif, just the aventail?

I like then geunther effigy below. thanks for helping me find it. Splints look like the order of the day. Can't really tell what is going on with the highly curved greaves. Are those stripes riveted to the Outside of the leather?
I am surprised by the complete hourglass gauntlets.
Also, the tunic is covering the shoulder. Is there some kind of spaulder, or just a high rerabrace?
Do you think the chauses are full, or just sabatons? the greaves look like they are complete wrap-arounds.
Also, am i right in thinking that the elbow cops look poorly dished and just buckled on?

You would be the shizzle if you recreated that picture. It is full of awesomeness.

As far as the specifics, this is what I can tell (not trained, not smart, just read the archive a lot and pay attention; also, I stayed at a Holiday Inn express last night) Please forgive me if I use the wrong terms:

--A cervelliere with attached aventail (the picture even has the detachable nose thingie, whats it called? A bretache I think?)
--Splinted upper and lower arms (vambrace and rerebrace?) with a simple fanless creased elbow cop. Looks attached to the lower arm but not the upper arm.
-- The tunic is knee length and I think the shoulder flaps are not armor, just ornamental. Looks like there are multpile little scallops, like pteruges on Roman/Byzantine armor.
--Hourglass gaunts, as noted.
--Pretty typical belt wuith little open hole rosettes and an elaborate buckle, then "SCA knotted" with the extras.
--Can't really tell what the cuisses are, either padded or leather definitely. I suppose they are leather, as I have never seen padded legs where the padding didn't extend under or farther past the knee cop. These look like they are pointed to something that is hidden.
--The knees are those cool multi-crease knees. Someone was selling those on here a while back, can't remember who.
--The greaves are splinted as well, though I suspect the are not fully encased greaves. I think something more along the lines of a schynbald (sp?).
--The sabatons I would guess are just extensions from a set of full mail chausses. Can't tell though, due to the surcoat.

Do it man. Do it all, and let the rest revel in your pimpness.

-Ramius

markrobertmitchell wrote:Integrated coif, Y/n?

No, go with a cervelleire and aventail under the greathelm.

COP, Y/N? Any particular examples I should copy?

Sure, or you could go with a one piece globose.

Arm defenses? Y/N? What kind, Cuir Boulli? splinted? Gutter?

Yes, I would go with full splinted. The germans seemed to really like splinted limb armour. rerebrace, vambrace, cuisses and greaves. In the Osprey book "German medieval armies 1300-1500" there is an artistic plate of a guy something Von Ostenbrueck, he is decked out in a superb kit. gold and red splinted arms and legs, cervelleire with breteche(very german, the breteche) greathelm with crest. He also wears a long surcoat and mail. A great looking kit.

Ailettes?

probably not by 1350 unless you are making a rig "inspired" by an earlier period. That seemed to be very big back then, tournaments with elaborate and exagerated interpretations of earlier period suits of armour.

What type of shied? basic plank heater?

More than likely, or you might go with a center grip heater. But for jousting tournament, more than likely it would be side strapped heater.

Cops, what type? soup can? tooled cuir boulli?

"soupcan" crusader simple knee cops and elbows, or simple elbows with rondels. Metal

would a fur-lined cape be over the top?

probably, unless, as stated above you are doing a "theme". But, either way you probably would not be fighting in it. Only wearing it around off the lists. But, either way, I don't think so.

markrobertmitchell wrote:I meant coif integrated into the hauberk, but I guess in reality there would be no coif, just the aventail?

yes, no integrated coif by that time.

I like then geunther effigy below. thanks for helping me find it. Splints look like the order of the day.

THAT is the effigy I was talking about Von Schwarzburg NOT von ostenbruek.

Can't really tell what is going on with the highly curved greaves. Are those stripes riveted to the Outside of the leather?

The speculation seems to be that they are either splints on the outside with riveted decorative "washers" in between.

Also, the tunic is covering the shoulder. Is there some kind of spaulder, or just a high rerabrace?

I would go with just the rerebrace.

Do you think the chauses are full, or just sabatons? the greaves look like they are complete wrap-arounds.

Not sure there are even chausses. You could easily go with splinted cuisses, greaves and sabatons and forgo the chausses all together.

Here are some Osprey inspired, and other interpreatations of that effigy:










The last is the actual Osprey plate interpretation from the book I listed above.

markrobertmitchell wrote:Thanks so much

No integrated coif, that was added much later, after the helms working life, by most reckonings.

I meant coif integrated into the hauberk, but I guess in reality there would be no coif, just the aventail?

I like then geunther effigy below. thanks for helping me find it. Splints look like the order of the day. Can't really tell what is going on with the highly curved greaves. Are those stripes riveted to the Outside of the leather?
I am surprised by the complete hourglass gauntlets.
Also, the tunic is covering the shoulder. Is there some kind of spaulder, or just a high rerabrace?
Do you think the chauses are full, or just sabatons? the greaves look like they are complete wrap-arounds.
Also, am i right in thinking that the elbow cops look poorly dished and just buckled on?

As Irish said, a separate coif would be used or a cerveliiere or bascinet with attached aventail. Under the great helm.

Greaves appear to splinted. Some of the the inside with rivets out, some on the outside. Might even be some tooling on the leather. Effigies can be hard to interpret.

Looks like an early form of espalier, that is to say, an integrated rerebrace/spaulder.

Could be a short sleeved surcote. Sometimes they were sleeveless, sometimes sleeved.

If he is wearing chausses, they are covered by the leg armour. The sabatons, to me, look as though there maybe some metal plates riveted to the inside with the rivets showing. Hard to tell. I don't know of any mail sabatons that were not integral to the chausses. Could be they existed, I've just never heard or read of it. Could be cased greaves or just 4/3, hard to tell.

The earlier you go, the shallower the depth on most couters or poleyns. SCA cops are dished extremely deep because of the requirement for three point coverage.

Thanks for the info Y'all.

I looked around some more effigies and decided:
To go about 10 or 2o years earlier (forgoing gauntlets)
To go a little less german
To not do splints.
I also made up a coat of arms and color scheme (Though I want to make the colors this absurd)
Damn this board's 100 kb limit

I would be interested in any nitpicks, ideas, etc.
What region does this kit represent closest?
Thanks
Now i just have to spend 3 years making it.

Oh, and one question:
I want to make my hauberk usable for both this and a crusader kit. Therefore I want to include an integral coif. Any issue about putting a hauberk with integral coif UNDER a cerveille and aventail?

Screams Holy Roman Empire to me. I like it. Check out the Manesse Codex. http://diglit.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848/

I think that having a coif under cervelliere, aventail and great helm is going to be really bulky.

I can't make any recommendations, but that helm is in the Germanische National Historiche Museum in Nurnberg, if I recall correctly. I might have some better pics someplace. I will try to hunt them down.

f