The Armour Archive

Hi Guys - in recent discussions in NZ we have had a jouster come up and say that a pig face that is 2mm is not an acceptable jousting helm.

i don't know why he has side that

Is there any proof of this as I was under the impression that what they were designed for jousting

If anyone has some material on the truth that would be a great help as I have a very confused client now.

Thanks

Allfiredup

Well then, ask him what they wore back in 1375 for jousting...

Did he explain his reasoning?

Perhaps he is not saying that they weren't used historical for the joust but rather that they wouldn't meet modern standards for safety since they leave the the neck uncovered except for the mail aventail.

I would think he referred to modern usage. Historically, death or maiming was an expected risk that you took. Today, we aren't so willing to throw our lives away for glory.

Dierick wrote:I would think he referred to modern usage. Historically, death or maiming was an expected risk that you took. Today, we aren't so willing to throw our lives away for glory.

Ah...yeah pretty much.

Well said Dierick.

all.fired.up wrote:Hi Guys - in recent discussions in NZ we have had a jouster come up and say that a pig face that is 2mm is not an acceptable jousting helm.

i don't know why he has side that

Is there any proof of this as I was under the impression that what they were designed for jousting

If anyone has some material on the truth that would be a great help as I have a very confused client now.

Thanks

Allfiredup

What gives you the impression they were made for jousting, just interested?

Of those I have seen they exceed 2mm maybe 3-4 for the most part but they were using what metal they had.

I would think that some method of securing the visor would be essential?

Which jouster? Callum Forbes wears one. He is a kiwi and the secretary of the International Jousting Association. Interestingly though see following images.

http://www.jousting.co.nz/Head_Hit_Taupo_2007_3.jpg

http://www.jousting.co.nz/Head_Hit_Taupo_2007_2.jpg

I am going to err on the side of caution and wear a great helm over a bascinet. Justin Holland does this in Australia and it looks well safe.

The other thing which you could consider is a padded liner under the aventail. This weights it down and stops it bouncing so much. This has the additional benefit if you wear it over a breastplate of stopping excessive noise which can annoy the horse. My aventail also comes up and over my chin to the bottom of my mouth, to prevent me copping a shard deflection up under the helm. I have also considered pointing the aventail to the chest area.

Great Helm over a Bascinet would be standard wear for jousts for the majority of the 14thC.

By the time the Pig Face comes into common wear we are looking at the late 14th-early 15thC. By this time the early Frogmouth helms for the joust have come about.

There are any number of manuscripts showing the Great Helm being used in the joust and any number showing the Pig Face being used in war. I'd like to see some showing the Pig Face being used in the joust.

The Pig Face is a war helm. It isn't particualry well designed for the joust, there is an awful lot of throat just covered by mail, the visor doesn't come down over the throat very far and there are no visor catches on surviving examples.

The Great Helm and Frogmouth helms do a much better job in the joust.

Andrew McKinnon wrote:Which jouster? Callum Forbes wears one. He is a kiwi and the secretary of the International Jousting Association. Interestingly though see following images.

http://www.jousting.co.nz/Head_Hit_Taupo_2007_3.jpg

http://www.jousting.co.nz/Head_Hit_Taupo_2007_2.jpg

I am going to err on the side of caution and wear a great helm over a bascinet. Justin Holland does this in Australia and it looks well safe.

The other thing which you could consider is a padded liner under the aventail. This weights it down and stops it bouncing so much. This has the additional benefit if you wear it over a breastplate of stopping excessive noise which can annoy the horse. My aventail also comes up and over my chin to the bottom of my mouth, to prevent me copping a shard deflection up under the helm. I have also considered pointing the aventail to the chest area.

Holy Caltrops Batman! Thats probably the best modern photo of what appears to be a serious injury in modern jousting....

[img]http://www.jousting.co.nz/Head_Hit_Taupo_2007_3.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.jousting.co.nz/Head_Hit_Taupo_2007_2.jpg[/img]

Was this fella okay?


.

A couple of stitches. Looks worse than it was, Callum said.

Hard f**king core.

With regards to the shape of the great helms used for the joust, this is a copy of the helm of Henry V, so about 1400 AD. Without speculating TOO much, I think this is more or less what you might have seen in say 1380, which is when the hundsgugel-style visors were popular.

Pardon the hijack - If you want such a helm and you have a size 59cm noggin or thereabouts, there is one for sale. The gent wants $280, yes that's right folks, in OZ dollars. Obviously transport is not included!!!. See pic of said helm in action. The gentleman is on the archive I am sure he will post more info if required.

[img]http://66.201.107.55/IMG_0588.JPG[/img]

[img]http://66.201.107.55/IMG_0589.JPG[/img]

That is me and MY helm!

Yeah following this question - as far as I can tell there are 3 main helmets for Men-at-arms in Western Europe at this time late 14thC (not counting chapeaux de Fer and early barbutes etc.) and here is a rough outline of their uses.

True Great Helm - Worn over a bascinet - narrow divided visor. Mostly used for Tournament proper but sometimes seen for pure joust and war (still though rare in depictions) - examples - The Black Prince Helm, Pembridge Helm

Bascinet - Both visored and open faced - used for war and jousts of war
I have never seen an image of it's use for a joust of peace.

Joust Helm - Pure joust helm - worn alone. Lower edge of occularium projects further than the upper edge- which is undiveded - evolved into the frogmouth helm - Seen from quite early 14thC but only in jousts of peace. - Examples - Nicolas Hauberks helm in the RA and Henry Vs funeral helm.

I should have put a commission in for myself =(

Cet wrote:Did he explain his reasoning?

Perhaps he is not saying that they weren't used historical for the joust but rather that they wouldn't meet modern standards for safety since they leave the the neck uncovered except for the mail aventail.

Its not callum its a guy from Auckland called Jerry. Light jouster.

He will be running the taupo jousting and has outlawed all pigfaces from his tournament.

As ive said - he has said to a client that a pig face is not a jousting helm and should only be used for foot combat.

What I really want to know is are they safe - does he have any right to outlaw them and how can I make this helm joust proof for her?

I dont have a problem with making a diffrent helm however she has her heart set on a pigface, so I would love some documentaion before I go and hastle organisers.

thanks

allfiredup

ps nice helm - want to sell any through the shop?
Medieval Supplies, Petone Wellington

Why not show her some photos of Great Bascinets, a whole lot safer, but could still have a similar look?

Early great bascinets, such as that shown on the funerary effigy of Jean the Fearless Duke of Burgundy might be the way to go- essentially a pig faced bascinet with plates added over the aventail. I have a few pics of the effigy I can e-mail if it would help.

Its not callum its a guy from Auckland called Jerry. Light jouster.

He will be running the taupo jousting and has outlawed all pigfaces from his tournament.

That would be Jezz Smith. If it's Jezz's tournament then he makes the rules. Guess your client needs to argue with him =)

You could look to see whether Taupo is going to be IJA or IJL affiliated and look at their individual rules and use that as the basis to argue the point.

Looking at the pics of Callum, I reckon they should be a good enough argument for an alternative. The suggestion of a very late 14th great bascinet may be a reasonable alternative.

That would be Jezz Smith. If it's Jezz's then he makes the rules. Guess your client needs to argue with him

yes but

it not the point . i will like to know now to


Cet
Early great bascinets, such as that shown on the funerary effigy of Jean the Fearless Duke of Burgundy might be the way to go- essentially a pig faced bascinet with plates added over the aventail. I have a few pics of the effigy I can e-mail if it would help.

yes thanks a lot

justin@afultd.com

Depends on Jezz's reasons. If it is a safety thing then a heavily padded (and I mean - like a jack!) camail (that is laced down) or an early great bascinet (which I think are prob later than what your client wants) - together with some inaccurate visor locks - may do the trick...
If it is an accuracy thing then there is not much you can do about that. Jousts of peace (in the period in question) used helms not bascinets.
I suspect it is a bit of both...

My personal suggestion is- if your client is mostly getting armour for jousting then they should really get a helm. You can crest and mantle them so they look cool and it is what was actually worn. The other option is to make the visor removable and get a great helm to wear over that- I realise that is a greater expense but so is converting to a great bascinet!