The Armour Archive

After taking a break from working on armour for a couple of months, I'm wanting to pick it back up again. The only thing that is stopping me is my disappointment in my tools. I have no good hammers outside of a decent ballpeen. All my other hammers are chopped up pieces of crap that constantly break on me or don't hold their shape because they are poor quality metal. I've got three stakes, two of them masonry chisels that I shaped for fluting and a nice ball stake from iron monger(which is my only real dependable tool). I have a crappy tiny little vice that doesnt hold anything for more than a few swings of the hammer. My anvil is one of the crappy HF chunks of cast iron that probably has lost twenty pounds from all the grinding I have to do on it to keep it usable. My 'forge' is a tire rim mounted on legs with a hair dryer duct taped to it. My bench grinder/buffer is a the smallest/cheapest one I found that home depot one christmas with a gift card for $50. I'm just tired of it. Everything I make looks like shit because I'm making it with shit. My work bench is covered with odd scraps of metal I stick in the vice in lieu of stakes.

What I want from some of you guys who know the sources better that I have managed to google, to give me some links to tools that I need. Over the next couple of months, I'm just going to buy everything new, get a concrete slab poured in my shop, and try to make something of a level that I know I should be working at.

I'd like all new hammers, preferably from peddinghaus. I just don't know what I will end up needing. Definitely a raising hammer and planishing hammer.

I'd like a nice belt sander, a much more powerful buffer, one of those torch sets that you can turn on and off quickly for raising like I've seen Eric use in his videos, a good quality vice, a source for some good stakes(like a real saddle stake and such, something I can make nice greaves with), all that kind of stuff.

I'm guessing I'm going to have to find an anvil locally, I've just never had the money to spend on one up until this point.

And of course, anything else you can think of that I'll end up needing like leather working tools for straps and the such(razor blades and kitchen scissors aren't working).

ah, and before I forget, where can I find relatively moderate priced parts for an english wheel? The top wheel and what I'm guessing is called the anvil?

I do not have an anvil myself.
Except for the cast iron 15 pound little thing from Harbour Freight.
I use it to make copper anti-arthritic rings and bracelets.

Now stakes... I have many, made from various industrial things.
Hammers yes, they can be ordered... however I grind my own.

A big ass vice or a stake plate is required for most tools.
Think about using some big C-clamps to hold things to your work bench.
That's what I do.

Best of luck in getting your shop in order.

Hal

PS: As to giving you a list, I could start with...
What do you want to make?

PS PS: My best sander is the Grizzly, I use it on everything.

This:

The next best thing to a Mistress Beverly.

[img]http://www.grizzly.com/images/pics/jpeg500/g/g1015.jpg[/img]

You may think the $300.00 + some odd number is to much?
Muhahahahah.....It's worth three times as much.

I did not install the center backing plate, as I like to slack belt sand.

Now to get into the real nice finishing you will need a long shaft buffing machine.

This is what I use:



Allot of neat wheels are available for this tool.
I like this type and cotton spiral sewn buffer wheels:
We will get into the types of compounds later.



Hal

Dierick wrote:What I want from some of you guys who know the sources better that I have managed to google, to give me some links to tools that I need.

Um....

This:

Dierick wrote:My work bench is covered with odd scraps of metal I stick in the vice in lieu of stakes.

Really ain't a bad start.

This is going to sound like me being a smart ass.... but it's really not meant to be.... at all.

Why do you think your work should be better than it is? (I'm just asking... I have know idea what your life experience equates to)

Why do you assume that the tools that other people use to make the things that they make, the way that they make them, will work for you to make the things that you make the way you make them?

Honestly? Only you can decide what tools you need. The decision should be based on how you go about making what.

If you want to raise a late period barbute from sheet, you're going to go about it a lot differently than someone welding bargrills onto spun tops, and need different stuff to do it with.

Some of the stuff on your list sounds like it could use an upgrade. If your vice sucks... get a new one. Cheap buffers are just that, you can make em work but a nice one would be nicer. (edit to add) The grizzly Hal posted is high on my list of things to get.

Stakes made from mild stock do deform, and take dings if you beat on them with your hammer. Roll with it though.... they also leave fewer, and less drastic marks on your work. I don't think of it as deforiming and requiring dressing so much as settling into perfection.

Hammers are a whole can of worms unto their own. Keep your trusty little ball peen. They have lots and lots of general use tricks. For anything else... the only hammers that I use are pretty much ones that I heavily customized to one degree or another. The majority of the non customized pile don't get used, and are just waiting for me to figure out how I want to customize them.

(Snip and paste)
It looked better in my head....
Dammit.

Now that's funny right there... I don't care who you are.

Why is that so?
Things always look better in my head than in real life.
They even looked better on the bar room napkin sketch.

Some times I think we are going faster than what is real.

Hal

Never underestimate the value of a good Hardwood stump. Oak or Hickory is good... Eucalyptus is Best. A couple (3-4) of hammers from HF ground to spex are all you need to start. A GOOD heavy vise, a decent welder, and a 9" angle grinder and You have ALL the basic tools you need. with these you make everything else. The 9" grinder can be mounted in the vise and power: discs for sanding ; Stones for grinding; wire wheel for rust removal; and Cloth wheels for polishing. A piece of Rail (railroad rail) makes a great starting anvil and can be had for free ( alot of times) if you go to the local train depot and tell them you make armour for a "Non Profit Club".... you dont have to tell them you sell it to the club members.
Shot puts can be found in at least 3 sizes and make a good Ball for welding to a 1" pipe for planishing balls. A Chinese Knock off "B-1" like shear and you have a good start of a usable shop.

Other than this... Check Kingslayer (?), Centaur forge, And Abana magazines for "Real" armouring (whitesmithing) tools.
PM me for plans for a Propane forge

Mr. Mattmaus,

You make all those fine helms with out a 2" by 72" belt sander?

My first belt sander was a Craftsman 2" by 42" Sears.
It was a little small for what I wanted to do.
However; it served me for several years.

Today I got my first hydraulic press.
A stand up model with hand pump.
I also got a De Walt carbide toothed cut off machine.

Whoop Hooo.

I will replace sparks with blue shards of metal chips.
Tool making requires this sort of cutting you know.
And I intend to be a tool maker.

Hal

How about this for a cheap option in the same brand?



It's only 1" x 30" and loses alot of room to work bigger curves, but if you can remove the table and the top plastic guard you might get enough room to maneuver.

And it's only $55 compared to $395. Much easier to swing for us new guys just buying the first tools, assuming it'd work at all.





PS. I'm just starting too, but I don't know what I'd do without the 3.5" and 2"solid pipes I found in the scrap pile where I buy sheet. Although I've been only doing arms so far, they've been invaluable. I don't know how to curl a long skinny piece like vambraces, greaves, rerebraces and stuff without them. Even lames are much easier with them.

I'd have to say that the best hammers i have our the one I modified out of old hammers. Hal has an excellent post about modifiyinga HF ball-pein to a raising hammer, you should check it out I did it and it is one of my favortie hammers.
As for a buffer HF has an ok one, but you can also just get a motor and a shaft and there you go. Stakes, I have a few and made them for next to nothing justa six pack for my welder frined and he was more than happy to make them.
Just my two cents

Pat Marshall

Tandy carries a good but affordable strap cutter, and yes they are very handy. The "thing" you mentioned with the torch is a "gas saver" expect to spend about $100 on top of the price of the troch set up just for it.

If I was to go with minum tools, I'd go with a reground ball pien, a chunk of rail road track, a stump, and angle head grinder. I can build just about anything I want with those few tools, all the extras dont increase ability they only make it easier or faster. My collection of stakes is nearing a thousand pounds and EVERY one of them was made from misc chunks of scrap I picked up or was given. I dont have an anvil or any comercially made stakes.

since you have a bench grinder look into an expanding wheel, they are great and in many cases I preffer mine to my belt sander (the 2x42 sears one Hal mentions).

brian

well hal, that $300 grizzly belt sander is now $471 total with tax and shipping. ouch. but your right...its worth it. like the price of a new B2, stunning, but you just cant work without it...imagine the lost hours and vast cussing if we had to go back to day 1 and whip out the jig saw to cut out pieces. The true lure is that we know we can make money and awesome pieces doing this, and the right tool for the right job just ups your game so much. but its the time from point "a" where we just dont have the funds or shop space, to point "b " where the ball starts rolling as you aquire better tools and start making munitions grade gear for the locals...to point "c" where your just "have" to have the right tool, because you have a standard now and you dont want to compromise your reputation, quality, or time line for your customers/friends. it takes me a third or less of the time to make some helms and parts now, than when I started....and with much better results.

Allright, I should have been more specific in what I wanted.

I just started a new job that pays a lot more money and gives me access to all kinds of new tools like a water cutter and auto lathe. I'm looking to spend about $4000 on new things over the next couple of months, and anything I don't buy, building with the tools at work. Consider my list as a 'must have' for what it would take to build a complete set of low gothic armour, with all the strapping. Assume that I have not tools outside of a hardwood stump, a ballpeen, and a roper whitney hand punch with all of the dies broken except for the 3/16.


Halberds, THAT, is what I'm talking about. That is going on the list. I came across a hand held belt sander at work and played with it on a piece of scrap armour I had there(using it to test the welder on stainless), and was blown away by how pretty it cleaned it up.

As for a stake plate, I've got an old rail tie plate(I think I talked to you about using it as a stake plate before), but haven't done anything with it yet. When I get some time, I'm going to buy some beams and mount it on a sawhorse type setup.

Aergis,

That will work for some small things but lacks the area, power, and slack to do really good work. I have one that I use but it really is just too small for many pieces of armor. Used in conjunction with a 4" angle grinder, though, you can do most things but the larger belt sander is still much better.

Cameron

Halberds wrote:[img]http://www.grizzly.com/images/pics/jpeg500/g/g1015.jpg[/img]

You may think the $300.00 + some odd number is to much?
Muhahahahah.....It's worth three times as much.

Effectively, that looks a lot like my Burr King (which I all but stole for $1500 used). If it's stable - meaning the belt tracks well and the tension is easily adjustable - and if it has enough UMPH! (tm) that should pretty much kick butt.


Dierick - I don't do a ton of armour work - but I do form a lot of scabbard fittings and some ornamental stuff. The anvil (Peddinghaus 50kg, I think) is nice, but I could use a solid vice, a steel block (think a foot of rail track), and stakes, stakes, stakes. I own a single stake that I didn't make myself... and it was given to me by the guy who did. The other 50 or so cost me nuttin' but time.

Hammers and tongs - I did what you are looking to do and just buy decent stuff. Blacksmith's Deopt (blacksmithsdepot.com) has been my go-to for most everything. I have a full set of Swedish-pattern forging hammers, a couple of raising hammers, a dishing hammer (wouldn't recommed this - just make one), and a good array of light to medium weight planishing hammers. Add to that some cheap hammers from HF to be modified, and I'm in business. MOST of the time, I just use the lighter end of the spectrum.

The forge - inherited a burned-out 10 inch long piece of 8in dia cylinder with sliding doors front and back, some kaowool and satanite, a T-Rex burner... works for the bit of forging I do. You could probably build one for, I don't know... $250 - $300? Go bigger, add a second burner for another $100-$150. Any area work I do is done with a trigger-fired MAPP torch. If I get to where I need to heat larger/thicker areas, I'll do a fuel-saver gig like Eric does have.

Things I'd love to work up to include some form of power hammer and power planisher, plus some casting stuff to do silver, possibly gold.

Easily, I could drop $50k on the shop and still be looking for stuff, but at this point, I think I'm still under $5k and doing alright.


Your BEST source for great tools is between your ears and at the ends of both of your arms. Don't get rid of a single piece of that "junk" you're using for stakes now... Sure, heat-treated stakes kick butt, but most of mine are untreated 6150, 5160, or 1075, and some are just mild.

There are a lot of good tools on the used market through Craigslist etc., but it takes time to find them. I have a large belt/disc sander (a woodworking model, actually) that's a Grizzly, I think it's around $400 with the stand and shipping now, but it was $125 on Craigslist and was barely used. With it I can shape inexpensve flea market hammers to whatever special shape I want. I do have a $35 peddinghaus hammer. It's very pretty, but mostly I use an antique hammer that I got (unhandled) at a flea market for $1 and reworked and handled myself, and a sledge I sawed down (by hand with a hacksaw) and ground into a diagonal pein. If I had your budget, I would get a KMG grinder http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/ and a B2, plus two new sets of dies for your Whitney punch so you have a backup for the size you need when the punch bit mushrooms out partway through a project.

I think the two most influential "do it yourselfers" that inspired me most were Hal and Mattmaus. They both make most of the stakes and tools they need to do the fantastic armour work they have done already. I dabble and do small things, with the thought that once I get better I will be making more complex armour.

I was impressed a while back when these two guys posted their shops and tools that they made....(Maybe it is time to do so again?)

Hal certainly....

Me not so much...

also... Avadon. He's done a LOT of tool making. (I think that's the right name.)

I'll try to get some pics of home built tools.

Ok I'll admit I didn't read more then the first post. Here's what I have to say.

Expensive hammers are only good if you can afford a lot of expensive hammers. Otherwise get cheap hammers you find anywhere like garage sales etc. Most of the hammers you use you'll want to grind yourself. Having a lot of different hammers that aren't fantastic quality is much better then having a couple expensive ones. My shop routinely has about 40 hammers spread around it. That's the point where I usually clean up. I've got about 70. Most I bought for under $3. And nearly all of them are custom.

Anvil shaped objects are fine for armouring. A real one is nice but the cheapos work fine for this stuff.

For stakes and stuff your absolute best bet is to have the equpment to make your own. A welder and a grinder pretty much do the trick. If you don't want to do that talk to halberds he makes tons of cool stakes. Best way to accumulate stakes though is to build what you need as you need it. I didn't learn this at first and just made stuff whenever I found materials for things. This is why I've got at least 10 stakes that never get used.

I'd love a nice belt sander too. But an angle grinder and flap disks works just fine and only costs $30.

It's not about how expensive your tools are. Or about how many you have (although that tends to happen on it's own). It's all about what you do with them.

Ok just read your last post.

Buy a mig welder. The millermatic 180 is great.
A compressor that will put out at least 12cfm's at 90 psi.

Take a welding course. There are short night school courses you can take at highschools and stuff. This is money well spent.

A makita electric shear (the big one). Much better and cheaper then a beverly.

An oxy propane torch rig with a gas saver.

Make everything elce as you need it or buy it as you need it. If you don't you'll end up with a shop filled with a couple grand worth of tools you never use.

Hi Dierick, seeing your Kastenbrust thread a while back; you already know a fair bit about talking to metal to make it do what you want. That being said, only you will know what you need in terms of tools. The tools that I need to make a suit of gothic armour, would be completely different than the ones you might use.

This is a nightmare for planning an arsenal of tools. There are several "safe bets" which have already been said-angle grinder(s), sanders, and punches. But on the other hand you often will not need a tool until the need presents itself, and said tools often cannot be bought, save a custom made job. Just what to buy first is a difficult question-especially in terms of hammers and stakes, however with your past experience, think of the tools you really needed, and also, the tools you used the most-buy those first, and then buy/make more as the need arises. Often tools that you make your own will out-perform store bought ones. They have a highly specialized purpose, and they meet that need perfectly. However a few safe bets in my book:

-jigsaw (make sure it’s orbital)-I use this more than my shears. You can maneuver around tight corners easier, and it leaves a nearly finished edge, also you can cut out from already shaped pieces-i.e. face openings for helmets, trimming armholes on cuirasses…

-hole punch-I really need one of these…these are needed for every project to leave your shop-almost guaranteed. Since you have a very nice budget, get the Roper Whitney-the largest size, with the deepest throat possible. Also get all sizes, and some slotted holes too.

-angle grinder-to do basic sanding, finishing and to get in those hard to reach areas. Also this is a highly useful tool for making modifications to stakes or hammers, can also be used for cutting.

-sander/bench grinder-can be used also for sanding, and also to do final finishing-i.e with rouges, and cotton buffing wheels.

-post vice-one at first, but several is always nicer. These can hold your pieces while polishing, hold your stakes while working, hold your hole punch, also great for twisting that bit of warp out of a difficult piece…this is an invaluable tool

-stake plate, or stumps-something to hold your stakes in-several heights is good for different sized stakes. If they need to be held horizontally-then go to your vice.

-anvil-not a piece that leaves my shop has not intimately met my anvil. Use it for “squashingâ€

Awesome input by everyone.
I don't expect to be able to pick up new every tool I need, and for the most part I know what I want to get. I was just hoping for some input from those who have invested money into their shops, and it seems I got it.


I'll probably be ordering some stakes from Halberds, getting a couple of peddinghaus hammers as well as taking all of the rusted ball peens without handles I've collected and shaping them up.

First on my list is that belt sander above. Within my budget, and pretty much exactly what I need. Not only will it greatly improve the finish of my armour, but I can use it to finish any tools I make myself.

Eventually I'll get myself a b2 again(sold my first one to pay for college, lol), but my 1950's jigsaw has been serving me well this long and I'd feel bad about abandoning it until I can get a shrine built for it. :p



I think my immediate goals before investing in new tools will be to get a slab poured and put up a new shop, and build some heavy wooden work benches. My current 'shop' has only three walls, a kaleche/mud floor, and so many holes in the roof that I couldn't keep good tools in there.

Hey buddy, feel lucky, you have the upgraded version of my shop. My entire forge and all of my stuff is outside, right now under a foot of snow, and I don't have any vices or stakes, except a few wooden ones that have to be replaced every few days. I have the 55lb HF anvil, which I found that the horn is not any good at all. I actually have to go and dig my forge out in a bit and pump pot a sword for Christmas...

Yes I have that Grizzly Belt sander that Halberds showed you it is totally awesome and improved the quality of my work alot. As far as hammers go my most used ones are a normal dishing hammer, (off ebay) a 3 lb rawhide (ebay again) and a ball peen. I have about 65 hammers but these are the most used. There are a Lg and Sm Mushroom stakes on ebay that are cast but have lasted for years that are pretty cheap too. I had an english wheel but I though my Air Planisher worked better and Waaaaay cheaper. This may be because I never learned to use the English wheel very good. Wear ear protection with the air planisher and gloves. Ill check if I have any hammers I can sell later on.

Take care

Andy @ Pitbullarmory.com

Just as an FYI, I don't really consider myself anywhere near novice level. I've got all the basic stuff. I'm wanting info on some of the higher end workings, like raising stakes and hammers and such, as well as the higher end finishing tools like have been discussed above.

As far as power tools are concerned; if you are only going to amke a suit or three, why spend a few grand on big name tools just to sit around later.

Having said that, if your going to USE the tools, then spend the money on quality tools.

Unless your starting from a lump of metal, generally sheet metal needs to be formed into some description of a tube/cone/bowl shape.

Just an opinion and/or some considerations.

So I ordered myself a bit of a christmas present.

http://www.centaurforge.com/Peddinghaus-300-g-Chasing-Hammer/productinfo/0052020000/
http://www.centaurforge.com/Peddinghaus-300-g-Shrinking-Hammer/productinfo/0050020300/
http://www.centaurforge.com/Peddinghaus-3_8-Flat-Nosed-Tongs-12-Rein-Length/productinfo/6171010400/

You did good, nice bunch of hammers you got.

My hammers look like this:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... ammers.jpg

Here are a few tools I have made for members:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... sTools.jpg

I am thinking you could use:
Dishing doughnut
2 pound dishing hammer
Y-stake
Planishing stake
Fluting stake

Happy tool hunting.

Hal

there is nothing I can add really to what has been said.
I know people who can do a lot of great work with just a few basic tools of low quality and lots of people who have many tools and can do nothing.
ALWAYS look at scrap thinking about how it can be usefull.
here is a little tool I made from the outer part of a ball bearing, see how many usefull shapes you have on it?.

a short piece of rail is very usefull and is an item I supply that sells well.
a good solid vice on good solid bench is a very good investment ( my bench has a top 5mm thick and is folded downwards by about 50mm at the front and up at the back by about 150mm, the frame is bolted to the floor and the top is bolted to the wall behind it ).
depending on how much space you have check the ideal bench height for YOU and the height of equipment you have that could live under it, mine has my big arc welder, my smallest plasma, a compressor and a stack of 4 forges and 4 fireboxes that totally fill that space.

Actually Hal, I may get with you later on about getting some stakes from you. I really like that U shaped one in the back of the pic. I could make it myself, but I just don't have a torch tip big enough to heat barstock that thick. That, and the stake you made for putting the ridge in the spangens of roman helms, that is something I would love to have.

I've also got a notebook full of other tool designs that I've needed in the past that I might see if you would be willing to try, but that's still a ways off.

For the new benches I'm planning, I'm going to go with a steel frame with brackets that can be bolted to the floor. Angle iron rim all around the top so that I can drop 4x4's in it. I really prefer a wooden work top for most of my work. I'm planning on a long table about waist high, then another one about chest high that is shorter, but with a stool so I can sit and do filework and such. I might do a plywood top for that just so I don't have cracks to lose things in.