The Armour Archive

I picked this up last year off of craigslist for $30, cleaned it up a little, stuck it in a box, and then forgot about it while I was busy with some other stuff.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll21 ... NY0358.jpg
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll21 ... NY0359.jpg
It's 16 ga. mild, rolled edges, bronze around the face, got some surface rust from sitting in a box for a few months, and some scratches from previous use.
Now, what exactly do I need to do to make it legal for SCA use? I know I'll need to pad it, but as this is my first and only helm, I'm not exactly sure the best way to go about this, and I'm curious as to how I should strap it.
Also, what breastplates would go well with a Barbute such as this?

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_gothic_armour.html

You are going to need to close the gap on it some. Bars or maybe perforated plate. For the padding, glue some blue camp foam in it. It will also need to be strapped. Your best bet there might be to go to a local practice and ask for advice/help. It's easier to show than tell. There are quite a few threads here with some good strapping writeups though.

Yeah what Ingvarr said.

It reminds me of Commander Cody's helm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRavD_AB8aA

Best of luck on your quest.

Thanks Hal, I've been taking shots about looking like the Human Bullet from the Tick since the day I got it

And thank you very much Ingvarr, you've been most helpful.
Think I've got some camp foam left over from something else sitting in the closet...

Ingvarr wrote:http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_gothic_armour.html

You are going to need to close the gap on it some. Bars or maybe perforated plate. For the padding, glue some blue camp foam in it. It will also need to be strapped. Your best bet there might be to go to a local practice and ask for advice/help. It's easier to show than tell. There are quite a few threads here with some good strapping writeups though.

Please do not use the blue camp foam. The stuff is horrible for helm padding. Just the wrong characteristics, pretty much all the way around.

I much prefer, use and recommend, foam neoprene rubber. It can be had in pipe insulation form at most Home Depots or Lowes and makes far better helm padding than the blue camp foam.

Getting some in person advice from an experienced person will be invaluable as it is the only way to evaluate how the helm rides on your head and exactly what should be done for padding it to fit.


Have you measured the steel in that helm for thickness ? It needs to be at least .065 and I'm just getting a bad feeling about the top of that dome.

Oh man.. for your area, 16ga mild, even if it didn't get thinned out through the manufacturing process, is too light.

The width of the T is most likely too big, as has been pointed out.. you would probably need to weld in bars to close that up.

I'd say that you are probably better off leaving this as a nice shiny dress helmet, and getting a fighting helmet that's much stronger, and is built to fit the spec (and your head).

-D

I haven't checked the thickness of the dome yet... I'll be sure to do it this afternoon.
But, the dome is 2 sides welded together, with a third, small circular piece closing the top, so I don't think it'll be too much of an issue.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll21 ... NY0365.jpg

For the record, I'm not planning on using this for longer than I have too, I mean, it was a $30 helmet, I'm not expecting much

The one and only reason I'm going to use it is for lack of funds to get anything else. I should have more than enough by the end of the summer (most likely going to be spent processing fish in AK ) to get a full, nice looking kit together, but until then, a mediocre helm and whatever I can toss together is going to have to do...

you could always put it on e-bay and sert a reserve that will enable you t buy a helm that is already sca legal and made to fit your head.
there are several people who do it for a reasonable price.
figure if you can get 150 out of it your set.
nobody needs to know what you paid for it.

Even if it does measure in at .0625 I wouldn't fight in it. It's not going to be heavy enough. Which means if your head gets hit hard your skull will accelerate too fast and your brain will hit the inside of it which obviously is really bad.

Woohooo~! Concussions

No hematoma. Bruising and bleeding in the brain. Will show up on a MRI. Possible brain damage possible death. Much worse then a concussion. New fighters get hit on the head a lot. Seriuosly it's not safe. If it was a greathelm with overlapping plates that add weight it would be ok but that helmet isn't going to weigh enough to keep your head from moving enough.

If the thickness really is ok add some weight to it. It's not about dents. Don't care how you add the weight just add some weight.

Ok, thank you all very much, I think I'll stop being a lazy bastard now. Matt kinda scared me >.>
Fact is, I have a sheet of 12 ga. hot rolled medium steel that's sitting there and rusting. I was saving it for greaves and bracers, but I think a good solid piece of steel on my head sounds a bit better right now...

And that piece of crap is going to go back in its box for now.

Peter Baker wrote:Woohooo~! Concussions

Concussions are also nothing to laugh at. Repeated concussions make you more at risk for having them in the future. Worse are what Matt mentioned. There's no reason to put your life at risk when you could have prevented serious injury.

I know, I know... I was being a little sarcastic... Fact is, I've been in the emergency room for head trauma a half dozen times, the most recent of which required reconstructive surgery. The time before was a fractured skull from driving in a fence post, slipping, and hitting my head with a 15 lb steel pipe. I still don't remember the two weeks after that one.

Geez, Matt, that even scared me, and I wasn't planning on fighting in the thing!

Peter -- I get the money thing, it's just that some things aren't worth going cheap on..

On the plus side, you cleaned up this barbute really well. You could probably sell it for at least $50. There are armourers selling functional, though not pretty, helmets for around $150. Zweihammer sells helmet kits for between $75 and $100, if you are willing to put in the work of assembling, so there's stuff within the affordable range.

Sorry again to be raining on your parade. You did a nice job on this helm, it's just not SCA-ready (some people take that as a compliment!)

-D

Peter Baker wrote:...Fact is, I have a sheet of 12 ga. hot rolled medium steel that's sitting there and rusting. I was saving it for greaves and bracers....

Yeah, 12g would be far better in a helmet than on your arms and lower legs.

If it is a true 16 gauge, and it fits away from your head, you might be able to get away with it for a bit. You might want to augment weight with some car door sound insulation, but it might could be do'able. I fought with a 16g helmet for about a year when I started here. At least I was lousy enough that I didn't get overly jacked.

In 1 year of fighting though, the helmet was fairly stepped, even with people being nice.

You have some decent armourers down in your hood, some that are even on this board. You might want to seek them out. Knightbee is down in Roseburg, Sir Alail (Horsefiend) is in Salem iirc, there are some others, but frankly, the too light helm is taking over, and I forget who they are.

banzaimf wrote::shock:

Yeah, 12g would be far better in a helmet than on your arms and lower legs.

Heh,

The helmet I use for SCA is 14g, it was a secondhand bascinet that happened to fit my noggin well, I purchased it for $80. It may not be the prettiest, but it's certainly stout.

12g isn't unheard of for helmets, the majority of steel armour if mild is around 16g.

Personally, I think Matt and Peter are right, the pic you posted makes me think it's purpose is more ornamental than anything. I wouldn't recommend trying to retrofit something like that for a sport like this. I highly doubt the dome is at the minimum, and even if it were - the grade of steel is in questiion and the retrofit itself may even pose more of a risk (one bad weld... ect.)

The risks aren't worth it, a lot of kill shots go to the head. (at least that's the way it was for me when I started)

I understand your enthusiasm, but I'd recommend constructing you first set of body armour out of a plastic drum. It's cheap, easy to work with - you can drill holes for ventilation, modify as time goes on ect. Hide it under a tunic. Much easier and faster to work with than steel, and less expensive (you can use a heat gun or oven to form pieces if you need to, but small sections over points of articulation work best)

Reason I'm saying this is as time progresses and you spend more time getting, well... hit with sticks You'll kind of get a better idea of how your body moves, how the armour protects you, how everything fits you, and what you want as personal armour.

For example I couldn't do maille in SCA, it just scares the shit out of me - even with hidden protection - I'm just not built for that. I also feel full plate is too restrictive. Some consider anything but maille with hidden protections uncomfortable, YVMV.

Brigandine, Corrazina, Lamellar and Scale tend to fill the gap between extremes, esp. if you're looking to build your own for cost reasons or just to say you did it yourself or better understand why it was built that way - the first two are easy to hide plastic in if cost or even weight restrictions are a factor, the latter two are more time consuming, but at that point it's also for aesthetic reasons.

I can honestly say weight isn't too much of a factor, I grew up on a farm, and bucking hay for 7-10 hours straight in 90-100 degrees isn't unknown to me.
I'm also fond of going on day-hikes, and can walk at a fairly brisk pace with up to 80 lbs on my back for 6-7 hours between breaks... (very good conditioning exercise if you do it twice a week, btw. Just don't overdo it.)

But, thank you very much, I've been completely overlooking the seemingly obvious choice of plastic as an alternative, at least until I can afford good stuff. I actually might be able to get ahold of a couple drums or garbage cans...

And please, feel free to keep "raining on my parade", it's straightening a few things out in my head, and getting gears turning that I don't seem to use as much as I should. Besides, I'd rather be told I'm being an idiot than not be told, and then get hurt 'cause of it.

as for padding, I agree that the blue foam is pretty much no fly zone, it works, but in the same way that a few wadded up tee shirts would work...
I use a sort of turban made from quilting with a band of fabric packed with some sort of wool that is cheap and avaliable at any leather store, it is squeeshy and absorbs sweat like a cheap matress!!
have fun.

Thanks cadfael, I'll keep that in mind

I want to thank all of you again for your patience and time. If all goes well, I should be able to get going on it next week, and I promise progress pics, of the helmet especially (I know some of you are helmet whores )
I've been putting all your advice on paper, and have just one more question before I call it quits for the night.

Is there a type of helm that's easier to make cold? I had to leave my forge at the farm 'cause the office wasn't too keen on having somebody with a very hot fire in or around any of their buildings... I realize beating 12 gauge into shape cold is gonna be a pain in the a$$, but I think it's my only option just at the moment.
What I'm thinking is dishing out (possibly raising would be easier?) a fairly basic kettle helm, and then riveting a perfed plate on the front, along with cheek guards and a lobster tail. It won't be too pretty, but I'm hoping it'll keep away the hematoma demons
(edited to correct spelling and punctuation)

With 12 ga. steel to play with, even at minimal skill/tools/time, you will be able to turn out something safe.
Look at the "Basic Armouring" guide at www.brighthelm.org
There is a helm specifically designed as an exercise in minimal cutting - it ain't pretty, but it will protect you.

O.o thankyouthankyouthankyousoeffingmuch!
That looks quite informative and useful.
Oh, and thanks, now I'm not gonna sleep tonight

Dude,
ebay the helm and use the profits to finance a new helm. I would second the "Basic Armouring" guide from brighthelm...it rocks mightily. Now if you'd like a kit as your first helm, this might work: http://www.greenbriarstudio.com/Armour/Helmets.htm
he has a barbut kit that runs about $80-$100. http://www.greenbriarstudio.com/Armour/ ... rbutte.htm



Ps. concussions are not funny...I don't fight sca anymore, as I've had too many.

I have fought in a 16 ga helmet. DO NOT DO IT. 14 ga minimum for the bowl, 12 ga preferred.

-Derian.

Dmitriy wrote: Zweihammer sells helmet kits for between $75 and $100, if you are willing to put in the work of assembling, so there's stuff within the affordable range.

-D

I would definitely recommend the Zweihammer kits, I have help put a few together and am very impressed with their quality. I recommend to all my new SCA fighters that they take a look at the Zweihammer kits for their first helm, you just can't beat the price for what you get. I have been fighting with one of their gauntlet kits for a few years now and am as happy with them now as when I first tried them on, again you just can not beat the price and quality.


Jed

Well, I'm liking the idea of trying to make one myself now...
I've been smithing in my spare time for a few years now, so I think I have the technical skill to turn out something usable if it doesn't have much articulation.
Now that everyone's got me thinking, the only things I'm not keen on making are gaunts, but I think I'll just strap and pad that helm, sell it, and buy zweihammer's mitten kit.

Oh, and if you really wanna see me go crazy with the helm's weight, I have a 6x12x1/2" and another of 1/4" steel. I could dish out either for a bowl
OR an indestructible faceplate...hmmm...

And as always, if you want cheap and protective, go Ashcraft-baker. Not as pretty as others but 14 gauge minimum and some of their helms go for $60+shipping. I and my friend have fought in Ashcraft helms for quite some time now and have yet to recieve the slightest of dents in them.

If your not keen on dishing 12 gauge, you can get a welded and ground 12 gauge M.S. top from Cet, and www.roughfromthehammer.com for $58 plus shipping.

Hi there, If your planning on making a helm Id suggest a Great Helm. I think they are the easiest ones to make.


Take care

Pitbull

Peter Baker wrote:And please, feel free to keep "raining on my parade", it's straightening a few things out in my head, and getting gears turning that I don't seem to use as much as I should. Besides, I'd rather be told I'm being an idiot than not be told, and then get hurt 'cause of it.

Nobody is trying to rain on your parade, they're just looking after you in your own fashion.

All I can say to you is start small, think big.

I wasn't around people with experience when I started so I wasted a fair amount of money and time trying ambitious projects that were fruitless. One of the big reasons I recommend starting with plastic, that and the guy starting out doesn't necessarily understand how his armour protects him. I wasn't aware you had prior smithing experience, As you've worked with metal you can imagine how working 14g may be discouraging to a self starter I did leather and am working my way up, leather is a luxury not all people can afford.

What matters to us is having a new face on the field. But if a person lasts a short while and gets taken out by a head injury that can be very different from a broken arm, finger, rib, ect. If they get frustrated designing their armour they tend to give up too. There's risks we all take but if I can't trust my head in it I don't expect you to and I'm sorry but that takes precedence. I can't understand how some fighters can take certain abuses through lack of armour but I just figure I wasn't built to take the abuse that they can, start overprotected and find what's comfortable to you before you start seriously investing in it.

Thank you for the advice.
I was thinking of starting off with a gambeson and the aforementioned trashcan armour, with steel over the important bits (Head, fingers, joints, crotch, which will also have my cup...) and seeing how that goes. I'm not afraid of the physical damage 'cause my brothers and I used to fight full force with maple swords, and no armour outside of cups and heavy work gloves, if that much...

The helm I want to make is the pot helm you'll find here http://www.brighthelm.org/articles/armour with a couple modifications of my own. I plan on making the face with a 6x12x1/4" plate of tool steel I picked up last fall (unless tool steel is a bad idea?), and 12 gauge for the rest. I promise pics when I can actually get started and make a little progress, but I'm not sure when that'll be.

And the previous experience is going out and pounding a couple hours every week or two for the past (nearly) 6 years, so it's not much, but it's something... Here's a knife I'm working on, if you want to see some of my best work.

Made from a recycled file
the sheath is a welding glove I burned the fingers off of doing a demo, and the handle is antler. All of it was done without power tools, for the sake of my pride.

Definitely use the 12 gauge for a new helm... It's far heavier than you'll need and likely want for bracers and greaves. Also, before you start making anything, (assuming your location is correct), look up the An Tir Book of Combat for the current kingdom guidelines on armour (they're on the kingdom web page (www.antir.sca.org). Make sure all of your gear, especially your helm, meets those guidelines, as, if they don't you're likely to get bounced on armour inspection the first time you go out in it. Also, if you find that you aren't up to the task of building any part of your kit, Sir Alail Horsefriend (horsefriend on this list) is only about 30 miles south of you in Salem and does a great job putting together a lot of munitions grade armour at very reasonable prices.

Tool steel is fine, in theory, though may be a pain to work, but I doubt you'll want anything as thick as 1/4" anywhere on the armour. It's a lot of weight to add and unnecessary. An all 12 gauge great helm should be more than enough mass to keep your head safe. Most armour work done these days is done largely cold in mild steel and tool steel can be done, but to do properly requires hardening and tempering. The advantage with tool steel is that you can get a piece that is as strong or stronger than the mild steel equivalent in thinner and thus lighter metal. There's no reason to go to a thicker gauge of tool steel than you'd need for the equivalent part in mild.

Awesome, thank you
I've actually been reading the guidelines over the past couple days and working out plans until I can get my steel down here, and I plan on getting in touch with the local chapter and running it by them when I'm working on it, to be doubly sure it's alright by them.

And thanks for the recommendation, I'll be sure to drop him a line if I get hung up on something.
The location is current by the way, and, out of curiosity, is there anyone local with any kind of setup they'd let me use? I talked to the apt. office, and they don't want me setting up a forge anywhere in or near their buildings, and they don't want me pounding metal except between 8 am and 3 pm, being as most of their tenants are at work around then. I plan on talking to the neighbors later to get their ok so I can work a bit later, but they're not very good neighbors, so I'm not sure that'll get me anywhere...

Peter,
All of my posts to this board should be prefaced with a disclaimer stating that I am an armchair armorer at best. I'm more of a discerning customer than anything. So take anything I say about metalwork with a grain of salt..

Definitely shoot Alail a line, he's a helpful kind of guy. Might even let you use his shop, you never know. Alail made my first helmet 10 years ago.. good times.

For armoring, a lot can be done cold; I've seen whole commercial armories working cold (unless you count the welder). Working steel hot certainly makes life easier, but it's not necessary for a lot of stuff.

The most important regulation for SCA helmets is that the eyeslot (and whatever other openings you have) be under 1 inch. Go for 3/4 of an inch, in fact, that way if you are a little off, you are still ok.

One thing I see a lot of new armorers do is make the back of the helmet too long -- don't fall into that trap! When measuring the length of the back plate, remember that you have to be able to tilt your head back without cutting your spinal cord!

I don't know anything about tool steel and will let my betters comment instead of making a fool of myself .