I have sent you some effigies including de Northwood. I was just curious if you had seen the de Creke and de abernoun effigies and co. why the 1320s listing show 0 COPS? Humphery de Bohun from the 1320s also shows them the hem and rivets though I have heard a 1330s date for this before but not sure they ever gave a reason why. It may just be if I see a hem between the mail and surcoat, especially with rivets I read it as a COP. It seems a fair assumption though I think.
RPM
I think the Creke and Aubernoun are later than the 20s and are probably from about 1340
There are several consecutive generations of Humprey's and I think his was commonly assigned to the wrong Humphrey.
Why would you push them back that far? I do not see anything that seems to be different than many of the other effigies from the 1320s and 1330s? From what I have seen they are usually placed in the 20s and 30s. I actually have never seen the de Creke placed that late. To me the style is not like most of the mid century effigies.
RandallMoffett wrote:Why would you push them back that far? I do not see anything that seems to be different than many of the other effigies from the 1320s and 1330s? From what I have seen they are usually placed in the 20s and 30s. I actually have never seen the de Creke placed that late. To me the style is not like most of the mid century effigies.
RPM
John d'Abernon died in 1327 which pushes him at least into the 1330s. David Edge placed him circa 1340 on p. 78 of AAMK. That is not evidence but at least I am not just imagining the possiblity of a later date.
I've been discussing dates with Randall Moffett.
Here is my system.
1. Death date will be the default.
2. The date is altered with strong evidence of an alternative date of creation such as Cobham (effigy made 1368 but he died in 1408).
3. If I have strong suspicions of dates being reported wrong or a creation date well after the death I will use my best judgement and adjust the data as new information appears.
My research is showing that a couple of years after the death of the individual seems to be common for the date of the effigy but this is by no means systematic.
I've revised and expanded the files they are all now live linked to the data so i can easily expand them and revise them without redoing the web pages.
Derian le Breton wrote:Those pages don't display in firefox... Looks like mht is an IE only file type.
-Derian.
I was afraid something like that might happen with other browsers. That is why I left the old pages up. It surely would have made it easier to update if I could have done it that way.
Firefox still gives me a wall of text, no delay (same as before). It pops right up, but it's all the source code, not the actual page.
A little research tells me that the problem is the format - .mht is a proprietary Microsoft format, and is not supported in Firefox and some other acceptable browsers. Looks like there's a FF addon to make the file type readable though: http://labnol.blogspot.com/2006/01/disp ... refox.html
although I have NOT tried it yet, that blog links to a extension for FF that it says will work.
under OS X, firefox and safari both give the source code. It looks almost like some sort of customized XML format which is probably why it is borken on non-MS browsers.
'Prototype' is Engineer for 'I screwed this one up'
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
PDF would be perfect - it's a very universal file format. If you have issues with that conversion, please drop me a line. I'd be glad to help, and have done many conversions from various formats into PDF. OpenOffice is your friend there.
your best solution to viewing these would probably be to right click, save as and open later with explorer.
Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience
I have to bump this thread just because it is awesome!
Thanks again to Dr Strong for all of the research and efforts that went into it!
Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit. -Aristotle
There are 650 effigies in the analysis. And they are divided into three sets
England (300)
Germany (200)
All Nations (650)
There is new data available as well and a new format. It is close to the finished version. As more effigies become available I will gladly add them to the data.
Just noticed one error, it's on all three pages. For "Thigh Armour", the graph seems to be the same as for "Elbow Defenses", just thought you should know.
That really is a great site, thank you for all your work.
Edited to correct myself.
Last edited by I. Stewart on Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Just noticed one error, it's on all three pages. For "Thigh Armour", the graph seems to be the same as for "Elbow Defenses", just thought you should know.
That really is a great site, thank you for all your work.
Edited to correct myself.
Nice catch. They are fixed. I am too close to see all the errors. Please let me know if there are more.
The German Thigh and Upper Arm graphs are the same.
A couple of little points that I'd like to get clarified.
For hip defenses you list CoP (fairly common, too), is that for any CoP or only ones that appear to extend to hips on the sides? I ask because the designs I see most would usually cover the hips.
I was under the impression that Jack Chains are purely 15th century. Would you be able to point me to an example form the 14th?
Steven H wrote:For hip defenses you list CoP (fairly common, too), is that for any CoP or only ones that appear to extend to hips on the sides? I ask because the designs I see most would usually cover the hips.
I was under the impression that Jack Chains are purely 15th century. Would you be able to point me to an example form the 14th?
The upper arm chart is fixed.
The COP listing is only for those that apear to cover the hips. Some are quite short and do not cover them. Those would typically be defended by mail only.
The best example of jack chains of which I am aware is the 1372 effigy of Gottfried von Arnsberg. He only has them on his biceps and has standard splints/studs on his forearms. He has greaves that match his jack chains as well. It is an effigy well worth studying closely for the details. Lots of pics of him in bildindex.de
