650 Effigies Analyzed (1300-1450)-Major Update!

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:44 pm

This is brilliant!

p.s. - Doug, check your PMs!

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:43 pm

Well now that I know exactly what I'm doing with my persona this really helps me figure out what I need to do to get the look I want. Great job!

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:22 am

Could I suggest perhaps using this in combination with other art and especially literature as it will make your persona/character a bit more 3 dimensional.

I agree that this is a spiffy project though.

RPM

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:18 pm

RandallMoffett wrote:Could I suggest perhaps using this in combination with other art and especially literature as it will make your persona/character a bit more 3 dimensional.

I agree that this is a spiffy project though.

RPM

I think this project could incorporate well-executed (and firmly dated) examples of painings and other art in the same format for a truly rounded picture.

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:10 am

I haven't looked at this in a while - but man, is it a handy little guide to some general trends. I like the presentation too.

good work!

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:09 am

The 1372 effigy with the jack chain instead of rerebrace actually made my heart beat faster. Thank you for sharing it.

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:50 pm

Tasha McG wrote:The 1372 effigy with the jack chain instead of rerebrace actually made my heart beat faster. Thank you for sharing it.

It just goes to show how much variation there really was out there. That whole effigy is highly detailed and filled with quirky little tidbits.

James Arlen Gillaspie · Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:46 pm

Umm... I'm a little confused. I don't see any 'jack chains' in the photo of the Gottfried von Arnsberg effigy, and I didn't when I went to Koln Cathedral and spent over twenty minutes looking at the old boy and making sketches and notes. ??

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:53 pm

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:Umm... I'm a little confused. I don't see any 'jack chains' in the photo of the Gottfried von Arnsberg effigy, and I didn't when I went to Koln Cathedral and spent over twenty minutes looking at the old boy and making sketches and notes. ??

Isn't that thin metal bit on his upper arm the so-called jack chain? Or are you saying it doesn't count as that? Just curious; I'm still learning about this stuff.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:04 pm

I will echo Tasha - while I don't know that I would call the upper arm protection a jack chain, I'm also having trouble seeing it as a rerebrace due to its small size and somewhat curious form.

I think I like it, but I don't know what to call it

James Arlen Gillaspie · Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:11 pm

I wouldn't call it a 'rerebrace' either

I would call it a small, laced on reinforce designed to alleviate blunt impact trauma from side cuts, and I particularly like the way it is shaped a bit like angle iron to maximize its strength. I would call the things on the shins 'greaves in embryo'. Jack chains usually look like... chains.

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:41 pm

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:I wouldn't call it a 'rerebrace' either I would call it a small, laced on reinforce designed to alleviate blunt impact trauma from side cuts, and I particularly like the way it is shaped a bit like angle iron to maximize its strength. I would call the things on the shins 'greaves in embryo'. Jack chains usually look like... chains.

Purely a terminology issue. I'd call it a jack chain or a splint. but since the lower arm falls into what I would splinted I thin Jack chains works perfectly well. Nevertheless he has some cool gear!

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:02 am

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:I wouldn't call it a 'rerebrace' either I would call it a small, laced on reinforce designed to alleviate blunt impact trauma from side cuts, and I particularly like the way it is shaped a bit like angle iron to maximize its strength. I would call the things on the shins 'greaves in embryo'. Jack chains usually look like... chains.

ahh.. we are looking at a German effigy ... so the English translation of the German name for that piece might well be "piece of hammered metal that goes on the upper arm to protect it"

In any case, I need to spend some time looking at more pix of this particular effigy. It's got some inspirational potential.

James Arlen Gillaspie · Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:48 am

I tend to be very 'Blair' in my terminology. He is very restricted in how he uses the word 'splint', for instance. I would agree, though, that the piece in question seems to meet the dictionary definition of 'splint', only in this case a piece set along a bone to PREVENT it from being broken!

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:09 pm

Awesome work. I will put out a plea for 13th Century effigy "anecdotes".
There are two questions one can look at here - statistically when did different forms of armor become common, but another question is "what is the EARLIEST" appearance of armor bit X.

This is helpful for us trying to put together 12th/13th century kits that are SCA-legal.

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:41 pm

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Awesome work. I will put out a plea for 13th Century effigy "anecdotes".
There are two questions one can look at here - statistically when did different forms of armor become common, but another question is "what is the EARLIEST" appearance of armor bit X.

This is helpful for us trying to put together 12th/13th century kits that are SCA-legal.

I could pull together a chart for before 1300 but it would essentailly be all mail

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:33 am

I have a few of the 13th 'trailblazers' if you will with the first couters and poleyns I know of but as Doug said it would by far be a chart of mail.

RPM

white mountain armoury · Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:38 am

Kilkenny wrote:I will echo Tasha - while I don't know that I would call the upper arm protection a jack chain, I'm also having trouble seeing it as a rerebrace due to its small size and somewhat curious form.

I think I like it, but I don't know what to call it

What you cant see is his greave is of the same form as the upper arm "splint"

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:06 am

RandallMoffett wrote:I have a few of the 13th 'trailblazers' if you will with the first couters and poleyns I know of but as Doug said it would by far be a chart of mail.

RPM

There are a handful of early bits and pieces but the vast majority would be mail for all parts of the body.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:39 pm

I know.... that was what I said.

RPM

Milos N. · Post by **Milos N.** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:15 am

Doug,
I was unable to find any effigie-like sculptures within 300 miles from here, except on two sites, (Bobovac - mid 15c. and st. Arhangeli near Prizren - c.1355. no armour) all smashed to bits and the photos I was able to get were too poor to use - though there is a graphic reconstruction of Stefan Tomash's effigy. I'd post that, but I can't make any claims as to the qualiy of the reproduction. Effigies were quite uncommon in medieval Serbia and Bosnia as from 12.c. onwards sprung a local type of grave stone (some as large as 10x6x6ft) called stećci or mramorje, with either fine floral or architectural ornaments or rather sketchy figural ones. They spread from western Bosnia all the way over Morava river in Serbia, with many regional differences.

You might expect some effigies in now days Croatia, most likely west of Omish (OmiÅ¡). I'll take the liberty of quoting myself.

You might have this one, but I might be wrong, so here this effigy-like sculpture of Roland (Orlando) c.1418/1419 in Dubrovnik, CRO. It is commonly accepted that it was a gift from one of the Italian states.

http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/Build ... il/621.php

I was able to find some hi-res pics on Photobucket or Imageshack, but my google-fu is failing me this time.

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:19 pm

RandallMoffett wrote:I know.... that was what I said.

RPM

I was agreeing with you.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:32 pm

Sorry... my bad.