650 Effigies Analyzed (1300-1450)-Major Update!

[Tailoress]

Did I kill this thread?

I took a quick scan through the chapters in the book I mention above on Alabaster and Purbeck Marble and gleaned a few interesting points. In the Alabaster chapter, the author (Nigel Ramsey) suggests that alabastermen traveled around for their tomb effigy contracts. They went to the people hiring them, if it was a high-end job. Otherwise, they used salesmen as middle men to design the effigy. (p. 37)

In the chapter on Purbeck Marble (limestone), the author (John Blair) quotes a letter from a monk writing to a prelate who asks the guy if he wants his image or any specific verse or prose carved into a slab he's ordered (and which the monk is expediting for him). He tells him to send instructions in writing, if so. (p. 53)

So I guess it ranged; customization by written instructions at a distance as well as in-person customization based on visual sources (most likely).

There was no mention of standard templates in these chapters, so no further clue on that.

[RandallMoffett]

Tasha,

I went to a presentation by Nigel Saul last summer on knightly effigies that dealt somewhat on the topic. I think there seem to be several centres in England. That is not to say there are not higher end gents who are solo and do it on their own, only that the schools like with some types of manuscripts have styles and design similarities. I think Dr. Saul said mentioned two schools in London and on in York. I'd have to look more into it but when I did my MA I chased down some info on the subject trying to establish such schools by design but I had to switch my focus just as things were getting interesting.

Has anyone done a study on the cost of alabasters, brasses, incised slabs, etc.? I have seen them on occasion in expense accounts but I could not say with certainty which was the more costly without laying all the info out in front of me.

RPM

[Talbot]

I am back online a bit. I am traveling this week and my access is limited. This week I have been entering all the data for the German Effigies. I finished today. I have about 110 from which to draw. I would love some more. I will post the charts next week when I get back.

At present I am not particularly interested in the statistical factoids such as confidence intervals that are being discussed I have certainly done enough of that in my doctorate but I think my efforts are better spent with the actual data. I am not suggesting that this is without value but it is not where I wish to place my emphasis. If someone wants to calculate those bits I would be glad to share the info to help them do so.

By the way I am using both 3D effigies and slabs.

[Johannes Wulff]

not really contributing anything...but just saying THANK YOU! this is great! definitely spent some time studying this. love it. thanks a ton.

jw

[Talbot]

Johannes, You are welcome.

I love doing this.

I have made some very interesting discoveries while workign with the German effigies this week.

I'd love some feed back on how to (or if I should) incoroprate the English info and the German info and the scant info I have from France and Italy. Should this data ever be put together into a broader 14th century chart rather than national charts? Would this be misleading?
The more I think about manuscripts The more leary I am of them contaminating the data. Effigies represent a particular social class floor for their creation. Manuscripts represent everything the king down to the common soldier. Will this be confusing? Will it be helpful? Should I make seperate charts based on social status?

[RandallMoffett]

Doug,

I'd combine all effigies as long as the individual regions/kingdoms still had their own charts for reference still. I'd not use MSs to integrate them into the effigies but perhaps as a way to compare them side by side. I think there are very interesting differences that will appear.

I am still curious about the COPs question if you have a second to look at it. I know for sure those three and others show 1320s-1340s COP evidence in Effigies but the chart currently for English effigies shows zero.

Let me know if I can help. I am near done with my PhD Thesis!!!

RPM

[Johannes Wulff]

for the sake of simplicity, making a general 14th C. chart would be easiest...but, personally, i would love to see them on a national level.

as for manuscripts, again, for simplicities sake, it would be much easier to combine effigies and manuscripts into one general document. it would be a ton of work, but i would love to see national breakdown along with those from manuscripts separate from those of effigies.

anything that i can do to help?

jw

[Sean Powell]

for the sake of simplicity, making a general 14th C. chart would be easiest...but, personally, i would love to see them on a national level.

as for manuscripts, again, for simplicities sake, it would be much easier to combine effigies and manuscripts into one general document. it would be a ton of work, but i would love to see national breakdown along with those from manuscripts separate from those of effigies.

anything that i can do to help?

jw

The BEST chart is something Excell won't do (at least not easily). Graph the same data for the same time periods from 2 or 3 seperate nations next to each other and still have gaps between decades.
English/French/German... gap...English/French/German... gap...English/French/German
1300-1309...................................1310-1319...............................1320-1329

Regretably Excell will either put columns next to each other or columns stacked but it won't (to the best of my knowledge) put stacked columns next to stacked columns. That sort of graph would give you a sense of shift through time for all nations as well as individual nations, plus it would clearly show if trends started on the continent and spread to England or vice versa or were developed simultaneously.

It's a chunk more work but it might be a future expansion of the data.

Sean

[Talbot]

Here is the numbers layout for Germany. Notice that I have carried on to 1450 because the "14th century" line continues to the middle of the century in Germany.

[Talbot]

Here is a teaser. This is the chart for helmets.

[Sean Powell]

Interesting. the 1320's appear to be under-represented. I would expect that column to show 100% all of one style. The helm page shows a 50/50 split for Bascinet & Greathelm. Does this imply that the effigy was wearing both or was wearing the bascinet with the greathelm as a pillow? Or did the number of effigies change between graphs? I wouldn't have thought to classify wearing a bascinet and resting on a greathelm as a 50/50 split.

Is the english data set up the same way?

Thanks,
Sean

[Effingham]

Damn, Doug -- you rock in all sorts of ways.



Effingham

[Gaston de Clermont]

Doug- I have a question on the content. When you say this:
Partial Legs means legs that have at least a floating knee cop but do not include both greaves and sabatons. In all cases, full legs of mail are beneath all of the other defenses.
Are you saying that everyone is wearing mail chauses, and some are wearing plate over that as well? I know some cases, like the Black Prince's effigy where that appears to be the case- well at least the gaps at his ankles show maile. Are the others showing the same thing clearly?

[Talbot]

Doug- I have a question on the content. When you say this:
Partial Legs means legs that have at least a floating knee cop but do not include both greaves and sabatons. In all cases, full legs of mail are beneath all of the other defenses.
Are you saying that everyone is wearing mail chauses, and some are wearing plate over that as well? I know some cases, like the Black Prince's effigy where that appears to be the case- well at least the gaps at his ankles show maile. Are the others showing the same thing clearly?

What I meant was that with partial legs there are full chauses beneath them. For example Knee cops and Schynbalds have full chauses underneath. This is not meant to suggest the a fully developed leg harness has a pair of chauces beneath them. They may but there is no evidence to state this was a common practice contained within these effigies. Often we seen Mail in the gaps but these could be voiders.

[Strongbow]

Are you gonna publish this? I'd seriously pay for a book with this stuff in print.

[Otto von Teich]

I think thats the plan Strongbow, I know hes been working on this project for many years. Doug, I may be the only one, but I think the national charts will be more informative, since regional styles were different (to some degree).

[Talbot]

I think thats the plan Strongbow, I know hes been working on this project for many years. Doug, I may be the only one, but I think the national charts will be more informative, since regional styles were different (to some degree).

Otto is right, I will have the data on a website but I will include it in my book. This is part of a larger effort to include information in my book that goes beyond the catalog of surviving plate armour from 1300-1430.

I've worked on Germany today and have included German saint sculptures and Guards for the holy sepulchre.

I have just over 200 images cataloged. Here is how Germany breaks out.

[RalphS]

Do you have data on the pose (like: crossed legs or not) and the creature at their feet? It'd be interesting to see if there is any trend or fashion and possible correlations.

[Sean Powell]

So this drop in effigies in 1320's and spike in 1330's has me interested. It might be a statistical anomoly with a lot of 1319's and 1331's that were borderline in the 20's but maybe there was another reason.

Paging through Wikipedia I saw:
1318: Disease hits cattle and sheep, reducing the herds and flocks in Europe.
1321: A bad harvest brings famine, starvation and death in Europe.
1329: Amberg, Germany passes to the Wittelsbach family.
1335: Congress of Visegrád: The monarchs of Bohemia, Hungary, and Poland form an anti-Habsburg alliance.
1335: Carinthia and Carniola come under Habsburg rule.

Meanwhile in England Edward III succeeds to the throne followed by the start of the 100 years war.

So not a whole heck of a lot is going on in Germany during this time period but there may have been economic forces that reduced or delayed the number of effigies created during the 1320's.

I'm certain a good historian will point to a dozen things going on in Europe that I missed but I expected to see either a war induced spike in deaths or maybe a plague induced retreat to the country and decrease in church effigies. If there are important military milestones it might be nice to denote them on some of the graphs. Evolution of arms usually comes from survival pressure induced by warfare while in peace people are comfortable practicing with their fathers weapons. It would be interesting to see if the timing of any of these transitions coincide with or follow important military conflicts. Having a few tic-marks on the date axis would help to identify those trends.

Just a thought.

Sean

[Talbot]

So this drop in effigies in 1320's and spike in 1330's has me interested. It might be a statistical anomoly with a lot of 1319's and 1331's that were borderline in the 20's but maybe there was another reason.

Paging through Wikipedia I saw:
1318: Disease hits cattle and sheep, reducing the herds and flocks in Europe.
1321: A bad harvest brings famine, starvation and death in Europe.
1329: Amberg, Germany passes to the Wittelsbach family.
1335: Congress of Visegrád: The monarchs of Bohemia, Hungary, and Poland form an anti-Habsburg alliance.
1335: Carinthia and Carniola come under Habsburg rule.

Meanwhile in England Edward III succeeds to the throne followed by the start of the 100 years war.

So not a whole heck of a lot is going on in Germany during this time period but there may have been economic forces that reduced or delayed the number of effigies created during the 1320's.

I'm certain a good historian will point to a dozen things going on in Europe that I missed but I expected to see either a war induced spike in deaths or maybe a plague induced retreat to the country and decrease in church effigies. If there are important military milestones it might be nice to denote them on some of the graphs. Evolution of arms usually comes from survival pressure induced by warfare while in peace people are comfortable practicing with their fathers weapons. It would be interesting to see if the timing of any of these transitions coincide with or follow important military conflicts. Having a few tic-marks on the date axis would help to identify those trends.

Just a thought.

Sean

I think it may be a fluke that i just don't have the right effigies. Your assertions may be right and there was also a trend at about the same time for representing knights in civilian attire in Germany (according to the Hurtig dissertaiton referenced above)

[Konstantin the Red]

What strikes me, is that there is quite a sharp change around 1340s. The common sense argument could be applied to early switch to plate legs, but slow changing to fully articulated ones. Legs are the easiest to hit, especially in mounted Vs inf. combat, so armouring them was a priority, but as the armour worked pretty well, there was no need to change it. Arms on the other hand, practically start as a full plate, some time later. Why would that be?

If fully articulated plate legs emerge before about 1350 (if I understand the actual situation properly), a plausible explanation is the technical issues were resolved in building articulated leg armor, and then it was simply scaled down a bit for arm armor, which then appeared as if sprung fully formed from Zeus' forehead. (We'll beg the question of the depth of the couter's curvature here, which would be the largest difference in form.) The spaudleroid at the top of the rerebrace is likely enough to be a feature appearing from about the 1350s onwards, and not universal, if the arms from say the Churburg 13 harness are an example (which Russ Thomas figures for no earlier than c. 1380 on art-style grounds). But spaudleroids would seem a midcentury feature in Italy, and I suppose later elsewhere.

This page runs through 14th-c. Italian arm armor, speculating at the very bottom of the page about the nature of any hard shoulder defenses teamed with the Churburg 13 arms.

[Mac]

Konstantin,

Look again at the charts. Articulated arms start showing up in the '40s and articulated legs do not appear until the '70s.

To a man in a war saddle, arms are more vulnerable than legs.

As an asides; it has always puzzled me that historians refer to articulated joints as "the Italian style" in contrast to the "three piece" or "floating" constructions which they term "German" A quick look at the art work will show that they were common in England a decade or so before they became common in Italy. It seems to me that in the mid-to-late Fourteenth century the English were at the cutting edge of armor design. Yet the modern English authors still pride themselves on their ancestor's conservatism in these maters!(?)

Mac

[Russ Mitchell]

Effigies as you're discussing were not traditional in Hungary in the 14c (and then you have to deal with the "how much did the Turks destroy" question), but in the artwork, we see legs showing up distinctly earlier than arms, includng, oddly enough, sabatons with brigandined shovel greaves.

But I'm on the wrong side of Europe to handle that query on English stuff... I know as much about the English arms timeline as most of y'all know about the Magyar...

[Talbot]

Here is the German data. I will tweek it a bit today but this is the rough form.

http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armou ... figies.htm

[Owyn]

Fascinating stuff. Looking at both sets of charts, it seems like German transition is running about ten years earlier than England pretty nearly across the board. Little more variety of some things in Germany. Lot less use of splints (??), which surprised me because I had heard that was a favored armor type there. And a lot of effigies with shoes instead of sabutons, unlike England were some sort of foot protection was the norm.

Neat to be able to do the "compare and contrast" thing!

[Talbot]

I have 24 more effigies from the period 1300-1450 evenly split between France and Italy. These are cataloged as well but because the sample size is so small there is not any useful info for the charts. My next step will be to start hitting up my books. I would welcome more images from those of you viewing in Armour archive land.

[RandallMoffett]

Doug,

Did you have time to look at this torso armour issue for the English effigies?

'Some COPs for the dates 1320s-1340s are visible no? Certainly in the 1330s and 1340s we have several where COPs are peeking out from under the surcoats. De Northwood, d'Abernoun and de Creke all clearly show the hem of the COP. I am sure I could find more if you like. '

From the few effigies I have from the 1st half of the 14th about a third have indication of the some COP of the likes.

RPM

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

I think thats the plan Strongbow, I know hes been working on this project for many years. Doug, I may be the only one, but I think the national charts will be more informative, since regional styles were different (to some degree).

Otto is right, I will have the data on a website but I will include it in my book. This is part of a larger effort to include information in my book that goes beyond the catalog of surviving plate armour from 1300-1430.

I've worked on Germany today and have included German saint sculptures and Guards for the holy sepulchre.

I have just over 200 images cataloged. Here is how Germany breaks out.

This is awesome stuff Doug! Thank you!

[Talbot]

Here are my lists. I would love to have more images from which to work. If you have more that you can cshare I will use them in this database. As you can see Italy and France are bare bones. Even good photos of ones I already have may reveal details I had not noticed in the pictures I have.

Great Britian:
Adam de Clifton
Adam De Everington
Adam de Stoke
Alex Mowbray
Alexander Stewart
Andrew Luttrell
Araud de Gaveston
Aymer de Valence
Brian FitzAlan
Edmund Pecock
Edmund Thorpe
Edward Cerne
Edward Dalnruge
Edward the Black Prince
Eluard Saltmarsh
Esmoun de Mallins
George Felbrigge
Gervase Allard
Gilbert de Greenlaw
Guiles Daaubeney
Guy de Brien
Henry de Cobham
Henry de Lotty II
Henry de Ralegh
Henry English
Henry FitzRoger
Henry of Berkhampsted
Hugh Bardolph
Hugh Cavaley
Hugh Courtenay
Hugh Despenser Sr.
Hugh Halsham
Hugh Hastings
Hugh Hastings brass1
Hugh Hastings brass2
Hugh Hastings brass3
Hugh Hastings brass4
Hugh Hastings brass5
Hugh Hastings brass6
Hugo de Weston
Humphrey de Bohun
Humphrey Littlebury
Humphrey Stafford
Ingelram Bruyn
Ivo FitzWaryn
John Argentine
John Beaufort
John Bettesthorne
John Blanchefront
John Borchier
John Braughton
John Broughton
John Cockanye
John Cray
John Creke
John Cressy
John Daubeney
John d'Auberonun
John Daubyngy
John de Brewys
John de bulsingthorpe
John de Cobham
John de Dummer
John de Goshall
John de Hanbury
John de Ifield
John de la Beche Jr.
John de la Beche Sr.
John de la Pole
John de Lee
John de Lisours
John de Lowdham
John de Lyons
John de Lyons figure 1
John de Lyons figure 2
John de Lyons figure 3
John de Lyons figure 4
John de Lyons figure 5
John de Meltham
John de Mereworth
John de Meriet
John de St. Quintin
John de Suly
John FitzAlan
John Foxlay
John Freville
John Giffard
John Hadrishingham
John Harsick
John Hauley
John Knightly
John le Botiler
John Leventhorpe
John Leverick
John Mauleverer
John metham
John Montacute
John of Ansley
John Pecok
John Peryent
John Peryent
John Plantagenet
John Poyntz
John Ralegh
John Raven
John Segrave
John Wantele
John Wilcotes
John Wingfield
Jonn Beauchamp
Jonn Thornbury
Lawrence Fyton
Maurice Berkeley
Michael de la Pole
Miles Stapleton
Nele Loring
Nicholas Burnell
Nicholas Dagworth
Nicholas de Beche
Nicholas de Longford
Nicholas Hawberk
Oliver Ingham
Peter de Halle
Peter Halle
Phillip le Beche Jr.
Phillip le Beche Sr.
Ralph de Knevyngton
Ralph Neville
Reginald de Ferrers
Reinald Cobham
Reinald Mallins
Reynald de Malyns
Richard Atalesse
Richard Beauchamp
Richard de Bimgham
Richard de Clare
Richard de Cornard
Richard de Goldsburgh
Richard de la Bere
Richard de Leighton
Richard de Willoughby
Richard FitzAlan
Richard Fox
Richard Stapleton
Richard Whatton
Richard Willoughby
Robert Achard
Robert Albyn
Robert Bardolph
Robert Bourchier
Robert de Cokefield
Robert de Compton 1
Robert de Compton 2
Robert de Compton-tomb1
Robert de Compton-tomb2
Robert de Compton-tomb3
Robert de Compton-tomb3
Robert de Freville
Robert De Grey
Robert de Roos
Robert de Septvans
Robert de Steveton
Robert duBois
Robert Engfield
Robert Ferrers
Robert Goushill
Robert Gurshill
Robert Hayton
Robert Hilton
Robert Marmion
Robert Ryther
Robert Swinbourne
Roger de Kerdiston
Roger Elmebrygge
Roger Englefield
Simon de Leybourne
Simon Felbrigge
Stephen Alard
Thomas Beauchamp 1
Thomas Beauchamp 2
Thomas Beckingham
Thomas Berkeley
Thomas Braunstone
Thomas Burton
Thomas Camoys
Thomas Cawne
Thomas Cheyne
Thomas de Braose
Thomas de Cobham
Thomas de Freville
Thomas de la More
Thomas de Latymer
Thomas de Saint Quentin
Thomas de St. Quentin
Thomas de Vere
Thomas de Weston
Thomas Duke of Clarence
Thomas Longvilliers
Thomas Massingberd
Thomas Swinbourne
Turin Family 1
Turin Family 2
Unknown
Unknown Abergaveny
Unknown Ashby Cum Fenby
Unknown Aukland
Unknown Basset
Unknown Clifford
unknown Croft
Unknown de Redford
Unknown de Sulney
Unknown d'Ersby
Unknown Essex
Unknown Green
Unknown Hih Ercall
Unknown Ifield
Unknown Laughton
Unknown Leeds Parish
Unknown Littlhempston
Unknown Mildenhall
Unknown Mobray
Unknown Morys
Unknown Much Marcle
Unknown Newcastle
Unknown Newent
Unknown Pamber
Unknown pembridge
Unknown Sandwich
Unknown St. Albans
Unknown St. Davids
Unknown St. Marys Bures
Unknown Swine in Holderness 1
Unknown swine in Holderness 2
Unknown Tewkesbury
Walter Arden
Walter Giffard
Walter Trayli
William Bagot
William Bruce
William de Aldeburgh
William de breyene
William de Echingham
William de Gaton
William de Hinton
William de Horkesley
William de Keynes
William Disney
William FitzRalph
William FitzWarin
William Prouz
William Tendering
William Waldham

[Talbot]

Germany:

Abrecht von Hoenlohe
Adolf von der Mark
Adolph von Berg VIII
Albrecht Nothaft
Albrecht von Schweden III
Balduin von Trier
Barnim Von Wolgast VI
Beringer von Berlichinen
Berthold von Zahringen V
Boleslas von Liegnitz III
Burggraf Reimer
Burkhard Rezze
Burkhard von Massmuster
Burkhard von Steinburg
Conrad von seinsheim
Conrrad Schenk von Erbach
Deiter Hoffer
Dieter von Hoenberg
Donau Schwäbisch
Drakenburg
Eberhard von Katzenelnbolen
Engelhard von Hirschorn
Englehard von Weisburg
Esiko
Fredrich von Sachsenhausen
Fredrigh Wild und Rheingraf
Gebhard Von Querfurt XIV
Georg von Seckendorf
Gerhard Von Julich I
Gottfreids von berlichinen
Gottfried von Arnsberg
Gottfried von Bergheim
Graf von Oettingen
Gunther von Schwarzburg
Hartin von Seinsheim
Hartmann von Kornenberg
Heinrich der Ungehorsame
Heinrich Reich von Reichenstein
Heinrich von Bickenbach
Heinrich von Erbach
Heinrich von Hessen I
Heinrich von Seinsheim
Heinrich von Virneburg
Heinz zum Jungen
Hennel Landscaden
Hermann Stumpp von Waldeck
Herrn von Katzenelnbolen
Huglin von Schoneck
Huglin von Schoneck
HungariaUnknown
Johann von Rappolstein III (later)
Johann von Waldeck
Johann von Wertheim
Johann von Wertheim
Johannes von Brandscheit
Johannes von Falkensetin
Johannes von Katsenbolden
Johannes von Ziegenhain
Konrad bei Rhein
Konrad von Berlichingen
Konrad von Bickenbach
Konrad von Bickenbach
Konrad von Brandscheidt
Konrad von Seinsheim
Konrad von Weinsberg
Kunz Haberkorn
Kurfürst von Böhmen
Kurfürst von Brandenburg
Kurfürst von der Pfalz
Kurfürst von Mainz
Kurfürst von Sachsen
Kurfürst von Trier
Ludwig der Baer
Ludwig der Fromme III
Ludwig von Bayern
Ludwig von Hutten
Ludwig von Oettingen
Otho de Grandison
Otto Von Ormalunde
Otto von Pienzenau
Otton Von Hessen
Peter Creglinger
Peter von Stetenberg (1)
Peter von Stetenberg (2)
Phillip von Falkensetin
Phillip von Wanennberg
Ritter Lorch
Ritter von Husz
Rudolf der Schiffer
Rudolf von Sachsen II
Rudolph VI
Rudolph von Baden-Durlach
Rudolph von Sachsenhausen
Rudolph von Thierstein
Rupert Pipan
Sybld von Lowenstein
Tham Knebel von Katzenboglen
Theodore von Witzleben
Thoederich von Lichtnhayn
Ulrich de Huss
Ulrich von Treyvaux
Ulrich von Werdt
Unknown Bamberg
Unknown Bamberg 2
Unknown Basel
Unknown Drossig
Unknown Freiburg
Unknown Ghent
Unknown Kveo1
Unknown Mainz
Unknown Nurnberg
Voit von Reineck
Walram von Sponheim
Walter Von Hohenklingen
Wehing Klosterburg
Wiertbietaz
Wilhelm von Bopfingen

[Talbot]

France Bertrand du Guesclin
France Charled de Valois
France Charles de France
France Charles d'Estampes
France Giles de Hamal
France Guillaume de Chastel
France Louis de France
France Louis de Sancerre
France Robert d'Artois
France Unknown knight

Italy Bernabo Visconti
Italy CanGrande Della Scalla
Italy Carluccio Vulcano
Italy Enrico Brancaccio
Italy Francesco Anguillara
Italy Lorenxo Acciajuoli
Italy Mario Cossa
Italy Niccolo Anguillara
Italy Niccolo Somma
Italy Paolo di Jacobello
Italy Riccardo Gattulasco
Italy Unknown knight

[Talbot]

Doug,

Did you have time to look at this torso armour issue for the English effigies?

'Some COPs for the dates 1320s-1340s are visible no? Certainly in the 1330s and 1340s we have several where COPs are peeking out from under the surcoats. De Northwood, d'Abernoun and de Creke all clearly show the hem of the COP. I am sure I could find more if you like. '

From the few effigies I have from the 1st half of the 14th about a third have indication of the some COP of the likes.

RPM

I would love to see more of these . In Germany there are guard chains attached to surcoats. That says COP to me but in England I have only seen D'Aubernoun, De Creke, John Plantagenet and Robert Du Bois who have concrete evidence of COPs before the 1350s. I don't have the de Northwood in my data set so that may be one more. I am sure they are there but I cannot see them. Perhaps there is a different way to handle this.

[d-farrell2]

Doug - are any of those Italian effigies web-accessible or are they in various books ?

[Milan H]

Doug.... This is freaking awesome!

Thank you!!!

[RandallMoffett]

Doug,

I have sent you some effigies including de Northwood. I was just curious if you had seen the de Creke and de abernoun effigies and co. why the 1320s listing show 0 COPS? Humphery de Bohun from the 1320s also shows them the hem and rivets though I have heard a 1330s date for this before but not sure they ever gave a reason why. It may just be if I see a hem between the mail and surcoat, especially with rivets I read it as a COP. It seems a fair assumption though I think.

RPM