I wanna be a CRUSADER

[JT]

Disclaimer: I come at this from a NON-SCA standpoint. I will NOT make suggestions for rattan, etc. modifications to kit. This is aimed at European fighters. This is not definitive

"A traditional numbering scheme for the crusades totals nine during the 11th to 13th centuries. This division is arbitrary and excludes many important expeditions, among them those of the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries. In reality, the crusades continued until the end of the 17th century, the crusade of Lepanto occurring in 1571, that of Hungary in 1664, and the crusade to Candia in 1669.[13] The Knights Hospitaller continued to crusade in the Mediterranean Sea around Malta until their defeat by Napoleon in 1798. There were frequent "minor" Crusades throughout this period, not only in Palestine but also in the Iberian Peninsula and central Europe, against Muslims and also Christian heretics and personal enemies of the Papacy or other powerful monarchs." - Wikipedia

First Crusade 1095-1099
Round or kit shields
hauberks, chausses[possibly] and mittens
nasalhelm
single handers, lances, polehammers, axes, spears and maces
surcoats

Siege of Jerusalem 1099


Crusade of 1101
Kettle hats start appearing

Second Crusade 1147–1149
Coat of plates starting to make an appearance? Early Greathelms?

Third Crusade 1187–1192
Maille hauberk, full sleeves with integral mittens and coif,
maille chausses,
Barrel helm,"Bell helms"

A well armed man would have a mail hauberk with integral coif and mufflers, chausses and a helmet or possibly an early helm. The pot helm appears frequently in german art of the period (What we tend to call the salt shaker style helm). But the helmet worn could have been a round topped nasal or a conical nasal as well. Kettle hats were also popular, particularly with the infantry. The Surcoat was popular and often hides any additional body defence. There are some hints from around the time period. Surcoats drawn with shoulders that stick out and up as if there were something bulky underneath, and an effigy in the temple church, London (iirc) that shows a buckled curie under the surcoat. Although I believe that is several decades post third crusade.
Shields were flat topped kites or long heaters. -Thaddeus

Fourth Crusade 1202–1204


Albigensian Crusade 1209
Pothelm w/faceplate?

Children's Crusade 1212 - Possibly ficticious
???

Fifth Crusade 1217–1221
Pothelm w/faceplate

Sixth Crusade 1228–1229
Pothelm w/faceplate

Seventh Crusade 1248–1254
Barrel Helms

Eighth Crusade 1270
Sugarloaf, greathelm, transitional harness beginning to appear? Poleweapons begin to be more prevalent

Ninth Crusade 1271–1272


Northern Crusades (Baltic and Germany) 12th-16thC
-Wendish Crusade 1147
-Livonian Crusade 1198-1290
-Prussian Crusade 1222-1223


Crusade against the Tatars
-1st 1259
-2nd 1389
Full 14thC [Transitional?] plate harness, Jupon, etc.
-3rd 1398 (continuation of 2nd?)
Full 14thC [Transitional?] plate harness, Jupon, etc.

Crusades in the Balkans
-Crusade of Nicopolis (1396)
Full 14thC [Transitional?] plate harness, Jupon, etc.
-Crusade of Varna (1444)
Full 15thC Plate
-Crusade of 1456
Full 15thC Plate

Aragonese Crusade 1284-1285
Sugarloaf

Alexandrian Crusade 1365
Partial 14thC [Transitional?] plate harness, Jupon, etc.

Hussite Crusade 1420-1434
Full 15thC Plate

Swedish Crusades
-1st 1155
-2nd 1249
-3rd 1243

[white mountain armoury]

Im working on a crusader kit, attempting to portray a Dane in the Baltic Crusader States, my progress is in its infancy, and i alreay want to replace the helmet with a fluted version.
The shield will soon be replaced by a longer more kite shaped version.
Also this is to be used for SCA combat, so some mods are needed.
The helmet is 14 ga 304 stainless with a welded aventail, the mail shirt is elbow length, and is also of welded stainless, i will be lengthening it by 3/4 inches, or to just above the hem of the cote.
The cote is made with a linnen lining and a fustian outer. the in progress cuisses are the same.
I will post more as i progress
http://www.whitemountainarmoury.com/ck5a.jpg

[Mike Garrett (Orc)]

Go north, young man! Be a Teutonic enlightening pagan Latvia and Lithuania! (a little different)
Or.......be a Lazar knight, of the Knights of St Lazarus (off-shoot of Hospitallers I believe), not all of them were lepers but many were (for a given value of Leprosy at the time! ). If people act in keeping with period, most of them should give you a wide berth! (Making it far easier to get to the bar - most important!)

[Rod Walker]

Ranulf de Sainte-Croix circa 1195. Full mail with an intergral muffler on the right hand only. The coif is part of the hauberk as well, the whole thing is built using the 'yoke' pattern so the mail runs the same way on the arms as it does on the body. Full Mail Chausses as well. Half solid rings and half butted.

I have lost my shield as the guige broke in the mounted combat. I am wheeling around to attack again.

This pics appears on the historical fiction author Elizabeth Chadwicks site.

[img]http://www.elizabethchadwick.com/pic23.jpg[/img]

[Guillaume2]

By 1250 maille glove are also a possibility as well as maille mitten



as said chainmaill had integral coif and mitten, ref:

http://www1.tip.nl/~t401243/mac/mac03vA.jpg

[Patton Lives]

Ok....Tuetonic Knight?these I wanna be's are they all SCA or anything goes?I'm assuming SCA...... brief history , Teutonic Knights were invading the Baltic Area from 11th to 14th century(Lithuania and Poland I believe) in order to impose Catholisim on the pagans and increase thier land holdings. Entire crusade nullified when a prince married into the Polish royalty and made the entire area Catholic. Bummer. hier leader is the Hochmeister. My Avatar icon is the one reserved for that station

If I were going to do Teutonic Knight, I'd probably pick 13th century, they were at thier height then. I would be going Teutonic Knight in the SCA more hardcore if they didnt suck so much in the 14th century, which is what all my armor is =), so I am just doing a generic german noble for now.

fighting kit Id go for footed rivetted chausses, hauberk with attached coif and mittens, padded cuisses with attached fanless knees, fanless elbows, greaves, and a sugarloaf great helm, those are sexay. sword fittings from mandrake for single handed sword, and make a kite shield with the teutonic cross on it, can be either center grip or cavalry strapped. probably get a linen arming cap from revival. Nothing should be extravagent or decorative, these were folks sworn to simplicity and anything that looked good just happened to be thus for functional reasons.
a mace and spear would be appropriate as well.

soft kit id get turnshoes, chausses, st louis shirt, brais, linen cap, and one of those catholic cappa cloaks in wool or linen with an attached hood, in some kinda medium to light grey, with the teutonic cross on the right shoulder, add in a pouch and belt with a rosary, cross, and maybe a bible if you portray a rare person that was literate.

check this out
http://miniatures.de/html/ger/italeri-6 ... ghts.html#

Thanks to T-Bob for providing a lot of my knowledge on soft kit. Hope he finds his way back to the archive soon.

[Steve S.]

Doing an early "Cruasder" impression, or really any Western-European knightly impression prior to around 1300, can be tricky in an SCA context. Concessions will have to be made in order to satisfy the safety regulations required by the Society.

Notably, the SCA requires more stringent protection for the hands, knees, elbows, kidneys, and throat than an authentic knightly kit of this era will provide. In addition, some of the helms of this era can be difficult to make SCA legal, but armourers have found creative ways to do this and, with appropriate applications of maille or fabric, the anachronistic nature of the helms can be masked.

Here is my SCA kit for about circa 1200:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/Gulf_ ... 010226.JPG
http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/Gulf_ ... 010229.JPG

Here is how I dealt with some of the SCA-specific challenges of making the armour SCA-legal.

Throat
Before I don my helmet, but after I don my gambeson, which includes a padded collar, I put on a stainless steel "gorget", made by Red Falcon Armouries. I believe, but am not certain, that some SCA kingdoms may allow maille to substitute for a gorget. I would not trust this arragement. I feel that maille is simply to yielding to protect your neck during SCA combat. I highly recommend wearing a gorget. It is hidden under the maille "aventail" (which is simulating a coif on this style of helm, which normally would be completely open around most of the head save the faceplate).

Hands
Both my sword and my shield incorporate a "basket" made of steel bars. The only SCA-legal way around this is to use full gauntlets, which are also incorrect for this time period. I prefer no gauntlet on my shield hand, and so I live with a basket on my shield. I also prefer a demi-gauntlet on my sword hand, so I live with a basket on my sword. As you can see, I also am wearing a stainless steel demi-gauntlet (half-gauntlet) made by GAA Armouries on my sword hand. This is satisfies the hand/wrist protection requirement. The gauntlet is anachronistic, but must be worn so it cannot be helped. I considered a leather gauntlet as being perhaps more technologically "feasible" for the era, but in the end I liked the fit of this gauntlet better and went with it.

Elbows
Since elbow armour is rare prior to the 14th century, you again pretty much just have to deal with it. I purchased some elbow cops that follow in the style of 14th century "soupcan" knee cops, and simply pointed them to leather laces that pass through the maille. Another alternative might be to wear them under the maille, but I worry about getting in and out of the maille with elbow cops strapped to my arms.

Knees
Again, fully developed knee protection is a rarity prior to the 14th century, so once again we must simply deal with it. One option, again, would be to wear the armour beneath chausses of maille or cloth. Since chausses of maille or cloth appear to have been rather form-fitting, again I find this a somewhat difficult option. Instead, I opted for an early 14th century solution - gamboised (padded) cuisses (upper leg armour), with knee cops pointed to it.

Additionally, you can see the Red Falcon Armouries stainless steel greaves I am wearing. These are not required for SCA combat, but since I have often found my lower leg getting hit by stray shots (in spite of it bein an illegal target), I choose to armour my shins since it hurts a lot when you get hit there. I would prefer to use leather here, but at the moment all I have are the stainless steel ones. Even leather greaves would be improper for this time period, but they should stand out less than brightly polished metal.

body
Under all of this I am wearing:
* A Bike athletic supporter and cup. This fullfills the SCA requirement for groin protection.
* Modern boxer shorts
* Modern sweatpants or "liesure" pants (lightweight sweatpants).
* Modern socks
* Modern East German combat boots.
* Linen undershirt
* Linen gambeson, stuffed with cotton.

Though I have replica braies and hosen, I do not yet wear them for SCA combat. I do not have enough pairs of either yet to sacrifice them to the wear and tear of SCA combat.

The maille is flattened-ring all-riveted wedge-riveted maille.

Head
The helm was made by Bryan Britt of Eagle's Talon Armoury (now defunct). SCA helms are required to completely enclose the head. This style of helm historically would not have done so, being only a pot with a facegaurd. To hide the back wrapper of the helm, I have attached an "aventail" of maille to a section of leather, which is riveted to the back wrapper plate of the helm. This provides a rather convincing look of a coif coming out from under the helm.

http://www.forth-armoury.com/Product_Ca ... s/side.jpg

At this time in history coifs were often integral with the hauberk, but since I have to be able to remove the helm, I obviously have not done this. There documentable exceptions to separate coifs at this time, so this is not entirely unplausible anyway.

In conclusion, I feel that this SCA kit does a fairly good job at portraying a "crusader" impression circa 1200, expecially from the waist up. The leg harness and the gauntlet are the two most glaring anachronisms of the kit.

Steve

[spanish_hospitaller]

I havent had a chance to take a photo of myself in my almost complete kit yet (only missing the ailettes and the greathelm).

But as soon as I get those items, I will.

This is how I cope with my late 12th, early 13th Hospitaller / Calatrava impression.

Head:

Arming Cap
Coif with ventail and integral leather coronet for padding and helmet fit
Greathelm
Norman helmet w/ nasal for LH/Display


Body:

Linen Shirt
Linen Gambeson with roughly 1/2" cotton batting
Wisby CoP (anachronistic I know, but it goes under the maille)
Hauberk knee length with full arms and mittens
Surcoat to fit my impression (gules w/ argent cross and/or argent with gules calatrava cross)
Ailettes (being made by good man Uilleag of House of the Wolf)


Arms:

I have pointed my elbow cups to the gambeson, and weaved my hauberk with some extra rings to allow for the elbow protection, so the elbows go under the maille.
I have also made myself some leather vambraces that also go under the maille.


Legs:

Gamboissed Linen Cuisses with leather over the knee area and a knee cup pointed to the leather.
Linen hosen
Leather greaves for my chins, that also go under the maille chausses.
Maille Chausses pointed with leather laces to common leather house slippers, unnoticeable under the maille chausses.


Hands:

Well, as it has been pointed out before, there is no way out of the SCA hand protection regulations, so I had to suck it up and got a demi gauntlet for my sword hand, and just the maille mitten for my shield hand.


So, in short, from the outside I look exactly like your average warrior monk would have back in the day, with all the required SCA protection being worn under the maille, with the hand being the only exception.

placide et humilius,

[spanish_hospitaller]

One more shield comment:

Drachus mentions either center-grip or arm-mounted shields. AFAIK, the classic heater shield was always arm-mounted. Center-grip was used for bucklers in this era, but not anything else I can think of.

yes, I forgot to talk about my shields.

My hospitaller shield is a kite type, and my calatrava shield is a long heater type.

placide et humilius,

[Patton Lives]

One more shield comment:

Drachus mentions either center-grip or arm-mounted shields. AFAIK, the classic heater shield was always arm-mounted. Center-grip was used for bucklers in this era, but not anything else I can think of.

My mention was to Kite shields specifically, and I seem to remember reading about centergrips and arm mounted being used in the 13th century in Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight(I dont own the book so I cant go look again) You can even see an effigy of some normans I beleive, 3 standing next to eachother with pointy shield bosses on curved kites, dressed in mail and holding spears I think.

[JT]

Maybe we should sperate this into Templar, Hospitaler, Tutonic?
Or by crusade? 1st 2nd 3rd???

Well, I'd assume that there would be commonalities between the orders as long as you stay in the same time frame, so....

What about basing it on the crusade (but give the years too, for those of us who slept through history classes), and then listing things that are common to all (or most) knights in that period, along with Order-specific differences?

[spanish_hospitaller]

Maybe we should sperate this into Templar, Hospitaler, Tutonic?

Or by crusade? 1st 2nd 3rd???

Dont leave out the Altopascio Knights, Montjoie, Calatrava, Santiago, San Jorge, Montesa, Evora and Aviz, Lazarus, etc.

They ALWAYs are left out.

placide et humilius,

[Gerhard von Liebau]

I'm curious about SCA fighting in full mail. It's been a dream of mine for over a year, since I've been back into reenacting (even before I was into the Medieval Era, again!) that I'd someday have full mail.

I know that a full riveted set of steel would be WAY out of my reach, as I couldn't afford that much riveted if my wallet was full of $100 bills. So, my question is:

Depicting a German Knight from the tail-end of the Crusader era, around 1300 or so, how hard would it be to do combat in a kit like Templar Bob's, with full chausses, hauberk, mittens, and coif? Also, I was under the impression that doing a kit from around 1320, German, I would be able to have mittens that were not integral to the hauberk, correct?

What would my options be for weight? Would butted aluminum stand up to the stress of combat? This would all be worn over an aketon, padded leggings, etc, of course. A coat-of-plates would be worn over the mail. A great helm would be worn on the head. Exposed elbow, knee, and shoulder cops would be used, and hidden vambraces and greaves.

How's that all sound? I really need to know whether butted aluminum would stand up to the challenge!

Thanks.

-Gregory-

[Felix Wang]

....
My mention was to Kite shields specifically, and I seem to remember reading about centergrips and arm mounted being used in the 13th century in Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight(I dont own the book so I cant go look again) You can even see an effigy of some normans I beleive, 3 standing next to eachother with pointy shield bosses on curved kites, dressed in mail and holding spears I think.

You are right, there is an image of three sleeping soldiers guarding the Holy Sepulchre in Edge's book. I understand it dates from the mid-12th century - the helmets are conical with slightly flaired nasals.

The presence of a boss does not prove the shield had a center-grip. This is a difficult proposition to prove, since almost any picture that shows a clear arm-mount doesn't show the front of the shield, where the boss is. However, check the Bayeux Tapestry - the vast majority of Norman shield backs are arm-mounted, and the vast majority of Norman shields also show a boss or possible boss from the front. There is a clear center-grip shield held by one of Harold's brothers, but this seems to be a conical round shield, albeit of great size (36+ inches).

Robert of Canterbury; Edit. Sixtus' link to the tapestry
http://www.sjolander.com/viking/museum/bt/bt.htm

[Patton Lives]

I cant figure why they would mount a boss on a shield and then not use it as a centergrip. Perhaps it was equipped to function both as a centergrip and arm mounted?(for on the ground or on a horse) and the center grip is blocked by thier arms? Or maybe it was just decoration

[Michael B]

Hmm, is there an online version of the Bayeux Tapestry?dont have time to search at the moment. I cant figure why they would mount a boss on a shield and then not use it as a centergrip. Perhaps it was equipped to function both as a centergrip and arm mounted?(for on the ground or on a horse) and the center grip is blocked by thier arms? Or maybe it was just decoration

I suspect it was used as a structural element at this point in time. To hazard an interpretation based on looking at various sources over the years, the boss was functional in the case of the round shield both structurally and to afford a protected centre grip; the boss was carried through to the transitional stage of the kite shield; it remained for structural reasons after the grip function had fallen away; consequently, it shrunk as it no longer needed to accommodate a hand; in some cases it also became more decorative; different methods of constructing shields eventually led to its demise.

Somewhat analogous to the male nipple, perhaps (at the risk of appearing frivolous).

As far as the structural function is concerned, there are those very late 12thC (I think) and early 13thC depictions of flat-topped kite shields with a small centre boss with thin radiating arms covering much of the shield. In at least some cases, these appear to have rivets or nails spaced at regular intervals along the arms. This certainly suggests a structural function to my mind.

This period is immediately followed by the diminuition of the shield into a form that presumably did not require as much structural support.

Accordingly, one should carefully consider whether a boss is required whenever one is depicting a warrior of the crusading period. I suspect in most cases it would be appropriate.

Just a theory.

Michael B

[white mountain armoury]

Some of this depends on what crusade, the Dane and Germans invading Rus territory certainly fits the term "crusade" as they were sent by the pope, backed with the clout of holy visions. This conflict went on as late as 1250, possibly later.
That what i am trying to portray, it gives more freedom in armour selection. i believe the only piece i will need to hide is the vambrace as armoured surcoats, gamboised cuisses and polyenes are used at this time.
Hand protection is almost always an issue for any sca personna from the pre mitten gaunt era. Knowing that a basket hilt is no better a solution than a mitten gaunt i have decided to make a bastard child wisby mitten gaunt.

[Greenshield]

That fellow at Ulstead's coronation was me

Gregory, I have fought in mail for my entire SCA career. The last suit of chain I made and wore for 10+ years was 35 pounds. I'm now wearing a Forth Armories rivited hauberk (Bless you Steven!) that weighs in at around 17lbs. The only thing I wear under it is a tunic or two. On a rare occasion I will wear a gambeson. No coat of plates hiden anywhere, just a kidney belt. Bazubans and street hocky knees are hidden under the kit. It would be very easy to transition this into what you are looking to do and, as a matter of fact, I have been considering doing the same thing and 'updating' my persona as he would have aged and armor changed.

If you have any other questions I'm happy to help where I can.

Camric
http://community.webshots.com/user/grnshield

[David Blackmane]

I wear a half sleeved, crotch level byrnie with 16 g, 3/8" id rings paint balling. I think it weighed in at around 12 lbs. It is easy to move in and suprisingly, absorbs almost all of the impact of the paint balls. The first time we went paintballing, I came home with several shot groups of bruises on my chest and back, with several more single ones on the arms and legs.

First time I wore the maille shirt, I got no briuses on the body, even though I was hit almost exclusively in the front torso/back. As far as fighting in maille, fighting in a byrnie would not be hard I would think. I was able to run, squat and kneel in the shirt with little difficulty. I'm sure a larger SoFC shirt with the lighter rings would be fairly comfortable to fight in.

[Flosi]

In regards to the earlier comments about bosses, I find them very useful to cover the area where the arm is strapped behind it in order to deflect blows from going through the shield into your arm, I have seen some nasty arm injuries where a shield has split and there has been no boss, whereas if there is a boss it will will normally (if you are lucky) catch the edge before your arm does.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Can anyone point me to any good rescources for the timeframe between the end of the 1st Crusade and the beginning of the 3rd? After Jerusalam falls to Saladin is fine but looking pre Richard the Loinhearted for right now. Not just armour but trying to construct a persona out of this too. I figure a spangen/conical with a mail drape attached to look like a coif underneath, a haubergon (maybe with mail attached to demis/baskethilt/full gauntlets) and eventually working up to chausses. Figuring on going with hidden knees and lacrosse arms, and getting either a standard or sewing mail onto a leather gorget. Is it anachronistic to assume that some of the crusaders became infatuated with local culture (kind of like tourists are today?) I drum and my girlfriend is into dancing and I was wondering if this would be an easy way to cover any ME stuff that we do (yes she came on crusade with me too so she can use the same excuse.)

[RandallMoffett]

OswynHaddock- try looking into William of Tyre's History of the Crusades. Very interesting book and written by a crusader born in the holy land around 1120-1130's. He died in 1185 possibly I think so pretty close to the dates you are describing. There are some very interesting primary sources for the crusades.
JT, As far as armour goes a full hauberk is likely with mittens, from 1220 on could be the so called 'mac' bible great helm by 1250 you get more helmets that start to resemble what we think of as the great helm. Coat of Plates pop up near 1250. They appear to be fairly common amoung knights by the last decade of the 13th first of the 14th. As far as couters, Steve is right on. I have found very few manuscripts before 14th, but there is one dated 1276 cicra that has a possible couter and a few from the last decade of the 13th century with couters as well. Then in the first decade of 14th century they pop up all over. As far as Poleyns, I'd say they appear fairly common by 1265-1270's or so from the manuscripts I have seen. I have found about 2 manuscripts (maybe three but cannot find the source) dated around 1250-1260 with the earliest depiction of men in greaves. I have seen a number of pictures of people with mail gauntlets but typically they are not wearing mail hauberks so maybe it was an and or thing. I imagine for SCA hidden armour and padding will be very important for an early crusader. I remeber some gauntlet sources but do not have it with me... sorry,
RPM

[Greenshield]

Oswyn,

My SCA persona starts around 1167-9 between the 2nd and 3rd crusade and centers around the Norman invasion of Ireland. It seems to be a little know piece of history but I've found it to be quite facinating and far from the 'main stream' crusader era persona. My persona is that of a Marcher lord who headed over with de Clair (often called Strongbow) during the time of Henry II.

The armour is somewhat transitional. You can get away with a knee lenght hauberk and a conical and go more 'high tech' from there with chausses and long sleeves.

As far as reference material I have a few (some good, some so-so):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/ ... sion.shtml
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... norman.htm
http://www.doyle.com.au/the_norman_invasion.htm (bad music)
http://www.teachnet.ie/mmorrin/norman/ire.htm
http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/sligo/ ... 41250.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Ireland
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ire ... mmary5.htm
http://www.four-courts-press.ie/cgi/boo ... rmdeed.xml
http://www.triviumpublishing.com/articl ... eland.html
http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/giraldus.html

reference books:

Giraldus Cambrensis: The History and Topography of Ireland (Topographia Hiberniae) ISBN: 0140444238

Giraldus Cambrensis: The English Conquest of Ireland (Expugnacio Hibernica) ISBN: 83830947x

Thats what I have on hand but there is quite a bit listed online.

Hope it helps.

Greenshield

[Thaddeus]

Not specifically 3rd Crusade, 60 years after actually but see the "13th century western warrior" entry. http://honorblade.com/marla/

[Thaddeus]

Would a Crusader of the 3rd Crusades have worn polyns....or soupcan knees/elbows?

In reality neither. A well armed man would have a mail hauberk with integral coif and mufflers, chausses and a helmet or possibly an early helm. The pot helm appears frequently in german art of the period (What we tend to call the salt shaker style helm). But the helmet worn could have been a round topped nasal or a conical nasal as well. Kettle hats were also popular, particularly with the infantry. The Surcoat was popular and often hides any additional body defence. There are some hints from around the time period. Surcoats drawn with shoulders that stick out and up as if there were something bulky underneath, and an effigy in the temple church, London (iirc) that shows a buckled curie under the surcoat. Although I believe that is several decades post third crusade.
Shields were flat topped kites or long heaters.

[MJBlazek]

Is this what a 3rd Crusader... (12th Century right)... would have worn aout of armor?

http://www.revivalclothing.com/catpages ... stunic.htm

[Thaddeus]

I think that is pretty close. Although I believe the short sleeved super tunic is a bit more of an early 12th century fashion, 1140 is a date that jumps into my head. I think by the third crusade the fashion was for a long relatively fitted sleeve on the tunic. It is a very simple look.

I dont have a lot of good reference on civilian fashion for the era yet, perhaps someone else can step in.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

My girlfriend has done some research into this and she has found that by about 1150 is when Bliaunts (think elbow sleeved hauberk but in linen with an undertunic and you have the idea) have started to come into style. They were only in higher fashion for a short period of time but stuck around in the lower classes for a good three centuries (i think). By the 13th century, you start getting into more fitted codhardies that were long sleeved. That is about the extent of my armour knowledge. Try checking with a clothing laurel in your area (and then let us know what she said).

[Smilingotter]

I'm considering getting involved with the SCA and, if so, am leaning towards a crusader persona. Since I haven't seen it mentioned, I'll ask: in "Kingdom of Heaven," what was done right, regarding clothing, armor, and weapons? Similarly, was any character outfitted correctly, but not for that particular period?

Many preemptive thanks.

- Tom

[Thaddeus]

I'll have to watch again to get the names right. The Baron D'Ibelin (Liam Neeson) looked perfect except for the sword. Tripoli (Jeremy Irons) looks pretty good as does the Hospitaller (David Thewlis) Although the hinged nasal is a hollywood-ism. Throwing your shield away so you can swing two handed is just plain dumb. The templars had some fantasy thnigs going on when they attack Balian at the well.

Longswords dont become popular for at least another hundred years if not one hundred and fifty. For really torquing on someone axes appear to have been popular. And there is artwork that suggests a two handed chopper sword/pole thing particularly in the Maciejowski bible, but that is attributed to approximately 60 years after the battle of Hattin - the battle the events of of KoH surround.

Generally though they did more right than wrong. Look particularly at the costume of the supporting characters and the extras, Orlandos stuff is pretty much crap.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

I'll have to watch again to get the names right. The Baron D'Ibelin (Liam Neeson) looked perfect except for the sword. Tripoli (Jeremy Irons) looks pretty good as does the Hospitaller (David Thewlis) Although the hinged nasal is a hollywood-ism. Throwing your shield away so you can swing two handed is just plain dumb. The templars had some fantasy thnigs going on when they attack Balian at the well.

Longswords dont become popular for at least another hundred years if not one hundred and fifty. For really torquing on someone axes appear to have been popular. And there is artwork that suggests a two handed chopper sword/pole thing particularly in the Maciejowski bible, but that is attributed to approximately 60 years after the battle of Hattin - the battle the events of of KoH surround.

Generally though they did more right than wrong. Look particularly at the costume of the supporting characters and the extras, Orlandos stuff is pretty much crap.

Just a quick correction, it wasnt Tripoli, it's Tiberius (which happens to be the real city that Saladin feints toward to draw Guy de Lucieon (sp?) out and then murders him). There is some stuff that is done great and some that is utter hollywood, but it is hard to list out individual things. The templar priest and the bishop of Jerusalem were particualarly well acted, I thought toward period examples. I have started to use KOH as inspiration to a real 1160's kit so email/pm me if you have any specific questions. Not as much up on the clothing, but have gotten pretty proficient at finding armour stuff on the web. Thats what happens if you dont have any money but still want to be accurate. The book that I would suggest for everyone really wanting to get a pretty in-depth history of all the crusades is The Epic of the Crusades by Rene Grousset, ISBN 023-29722-49. It has a great history of the beginning, why certain things happened and what exactly happened between crusades. I picked it up in a used book store for 10.00 but abebooks has it for around $12. I just figured out after reading a review that it this is just a summary of three books that the author put out that apparantly extremely detail the Crusades. Now I have new books I have to get. Any other good resources besides the Osprey Books?

[B. Fulton]

My primary persona/heavy fighter persona is a Crusader of the time just after the first Crusade, say about 1150-1200 time period at the latest. I.e the Kingdom of Jerusalem is established, not fallen, so pre-3rd Crusade.

Armorwise (see my "Maille dilemma" post in Interpretive Recreation) I'm fairly figured out (mail, SCA Nasal, surcoat, and either plastic or leather underneath the mail but probably over the gambeson so i don't get annihilated, with hard knees/elbows laced on, and splinted vambraces/rerebraces) for my persona, basically a moderately well-to-do serjeant or lower-end knight (i.e 2nd or 3rd son of nobility) of English extraction, who's been to/in the Holy Land. Since I've been to the Holy Land, it fits me (Tiberias is a very interesting city, the Roman walls still stand).

Clotheswise out of armor, the surcoat/supertunic with undertunic thing is fairly close as far as I can tell to what a person of my stature would have worn. Anybody who knows more, HELP!!!!

My local stronghold in Drachenwald is tiny (about 8 or less of us) cause we're all military and moving around a lot, so we don't have a lot of the usual types around to help.

[Thaddeus]

Klaus the Red here on the archive did a nice long gown and surcoat for me recently. I have a few pics but most of them are pretty soft. I am still lacking a few finishing items but it is getting closer.

[J. Morgan Kuberry]

This was touched upon briefly early in the thread, but since the focus has been on armor, and especially since KoH costume was brought up I'm going to point out a particularly sore point for a lot of people: You can't wear PANTS and be historically correct. Braies and chausses are the way to go.

Oswyn, (and I apologize if this was already covered, or if it offends someone) as for becoming infatuated with local culture, yes and no. Middle eastern culture did impact western fashion, cuisine, etc. Don't forget though that this was a world that defined ethnicity along religious lines, and acting too much like the wrong people would be suspect at best. For example, re-read the Song of Roland, where Islam is not really differentiated from Satanism. Don't forget also that an awful lot of what goes on in the SCA as "Middle Eastern" would've gotten real medieval muslims executed for flagrant disregard of societal/religious/legal convention.

[Smilingotter]

A question about the helms that Rod Walker and Steve mention (pots with face guards) - are there any patterns for them online? (Granted, they don't seem overly complicated.) Barring that, do any of the better vendors make them? There's a picture of a really nice one at zweihammer.com, but in his gallery, not his catalog.

Thanks.

Edit: Ok, while I'm still possibly interested in making my own, if all else fails Valentine Armouries makes one:

http://www.varmouries.com/cru_09.html