I Wanna be an English archer of the hundred years war

[Gabriel Morgan]

Not to commit thread-necromancy of the vilest sort here, but I've been mulling over the idea of an unusually armoured archer in the 100 Year's War (surely a contradiction to my overly-taxed imagination) and wondered exactly would that entail?

Sallet/Kettle helm?
Maille Haubergeon (I would assume)?
Coat-of-plates?
Arm and leg plate harness?
Maille standard and/or aventail?

One has all of these carefully-cultivated ideas in one's head and then something comes along and upsets everything. History is such a crazy business.

[Strongbow]

Not to commit thread-necromancy of the vilest sort here, but I've been mulling over the idea of an unusually armoured archer in the 100 Year's War (surely a contradiction to my overly-taxed imagination) and wondered exactly would that entail?

Well, the HYW covers a LOT of time, so it would vary a bit but....

Sallet/Kettle helm?

Yes. Add the Bascinet and it's forerunner, the cerveillier to that list. I'd only add the caveat that open face styles seem to be preferred. I can't recall seeing a fully enclosed helmet, but that doesn;t mean there aren;t examples out there.

Maille Haubergeon (I would assume)?

Certainly

Coat-of-plates?

I would say probably, but there is no direct evidence of it that I'm aware of.

Arm and leg plate harness?

Certainly. Lots of evidence for these.

Maille standard and/or aventail?

Yes.

One has all of these carefully-cultivated ideas in one's head and then something comes along and upsets everything. History is such a crazy business.

That's what makes it fun!

[Jehan de Pelham]

Question about kettle hats: Do they interfere with drawing to the chin?

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Strongbow]

Hi Jehan,

I have worn a couple different kettle hats and here's my experience:

Kettle hats with a relatively modest brim do not interfere with drawing to the chin, but they can interfere with drawing to the ear a bit, depending on how wide the brim actually is, and how far back you actually pull. I know one guy years ago who identified his correct anchor position when the string JUST touched the brim.

Kettle hats with very large brims can be a real problem.

In short, I wouldn't actually buy a kettlehat I intended to shoot with without trying it on and drawing.

FWIW, I usually draw to the chin when shooting at short range for accuracy and to the ear when clout shooting, or shooting for power at close range.

[Sceotan]

Ohhhh, you chin pullin mongrels. Ya'll would have caught hell in period. I remember reading somewhere that it was considerd unmanly in England to draw anywhere besides to the ear. I'm at work, so I can;t find the source.

Anyway. I've shot with a couple kettle hats, and as stated, some are trouble and some are not. I prefer a basinet or some form of skullcap. I find they stay on and situated better, atleast for me. I draw to the ear all the time, so I'm bias to something that doesn't and can't really bother me at all. Took me a while to get my accuracy down at the ear, but now that it's alright, I'll never go back. Lord I wish I had more time to shoot these days.

[Strongbow]

Yeah, that's my problem... I have accuracy problems when shooting from the ear.... and I don;t have an hour a day to practice . I am slowly improving though, so maybe I'll switch to the ear all the time when I get good enough.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Yeah, I messed up. I knew that the right spot to draw to was the ear. Here's my read: Kettle hats for arbalesters, steel caps (old cervellieres), primitive sallets (without visors), or unvisored bascinets for archers. Or those funky scale helmets you see in some iconography.

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[James B.]

A kettle does mess with pulling; I think that is why we see archers wearing other hats in the iconography.

Now that I ordered my maille shirt I should take a few pictures of an archer of era. I will try and take a few examples, maille, maille & gambeson, maille & a CoP, after Pennsic.

[Sceotan]

I would also count kettle hats in with Seargents and lower class men-at-arms. I see the praticality of it in those forms as the rim offers a spot of extra defence from a downward head shot and keeps the sun off, which can be a big deal.

Personally, I don't think anyone can go wrong with a wool or linen hood and some form of skullcap.

Strongbow, just keep at it man. It took me time and I have always been known as a fairly natural good shot with a bow and rifle. This is why it took a man years to learn. My best advice is to learn how to shoot on instinct. The trick is for you not to have to aim and for your mind to do its work on its own. Once I started to understand and work on that, everything started to change.

[earnest carruthers]

The archer in the St Ursula piece is not drawing fully, ie not to the ear, not only that isn't his bow a bit recurved?

And as has been said drawing to the chin is a workaround and not representative of the drawing style for the longbow. To draw to the ear one puts ones back into it and closes the shoulder blades, chin drawing relies on arms only, not to mention losing a couple of inches at least on the arrow assuming a proper draw to the arrow head.

[Strongbow]

I pull the same way (with my back) whether drawing to the chin or ear.... I just don't pull as far when drawing to the chin. I only draw to the chin beacuse I shoot more accurately. But otherwise, the drawing technique is the same, at least for me.

[Theodore]

"Training - other than the obligatory archery what was there, is there any evidence for English archers training in any other way in England?"

There is plenty of evidence of archers, even ones who were serfs, becoming men at arms and even knights over the course of their careers. I'm reading Medieval Mercenaries by Fowler right now and he discusses several mercenary captains who started as archers 20 years earlier.

[T. Finkas]

Per request, my impression of an English archer, late 1300's:

[T. Finkas]

Agreed!

If you didn't see my post elsewhere you might have missed the fact I had to retouch these photos because the arms were on backwards! How did I manage that?

Well, the event was almost over and were were just about ready to break camp. Storm clouds were looming and the wind was beginning to come up with authority. As I contemplated packing up I realized I had not put on my harness and therefore had no photos of it. I thought I could harness up quickly, get a few photos shot and pack up before the rain hit.

Since I was getting armored up by myself, I tied the arms and spaulders onto their hardpoints first. Then I put the gambeson on with the arms attached. If I had put the gambeson on first it might have been a different story. In my headlong rush to get this done I never noticed the arms were on the wrong arms (i.e. left or right arm & right on left arm). Nobody else noticed either! But remember the circumstances---we were scrambling before a storm.

I have to think in the history of men wearing armour this has to have happened on occasion. So...just call me Lance...Lance Armswrong!!!

LOL

[James B.]

Now that I ordered my maille shirt I should take a few pictures of an archer of era. I will try and take a few examples, maille, maille & gambeson, maille & a CoP, after Pennsic.

I'd love to see these, if you would.

I still have work to do on the maille and some of the kit. I also sold my cotte armor I had and need to make a new one. Man I am slow. Tim's kit is a nice example of what I am going for.

In a few weeks I will finish my mid 14th garb and do the maille and get a few different looks going.

[earnest carruthers]

theodore

"There is plenty of evidence of archers, even ones who were serfs, becoming men at arms and even knights over the course of their careers. I'm reading Medieval Mercenaries by Fowler right now and he discusses several mercenary captains who started as archers 20 years earlier."

that is an answer to a different question. I asked if there was any evidence that archers had any training other than the statute obligation. Of course 'common' soldiers could rise through the social/military ranks and take up different arms within, that is not the same as formal training for the common soldier, which there is a dearth of evidence for.

So apart from the Sunday shoot what evidence of training was there, in the context of a normal by the day 'soldier', ie a man obliged to serve not a 'professional', bearing in mind the vast majority of men would not have been near a battle, much less on forays to France.

[mercenary]

Just as a reference, I think An Archer's Tale by Bernard Cornwell and it's sequels are rather accurate in their descriptions. That is one source where it mentions the unmanliness of drawing to the chin.

Also, in Heretic, ther third in the series, there is a picture of a bunch of archers; unfortunately, after doing research, I found it was obvious that the picture and the story are off by about a hundred years. However, here are the basics that I am pretty sure are correct.

1346: this is when the book is placed. Thomas, the main character, wears a haubergeon for most of the story, and it doesn't really mention helms, but I found that in that time period, archers usually used visorless bascinets. Thomas used a falchion in one scene, but otherwise used a short sword.

The picture, which I think is from about the 1450s, shows the archers in gambesons, haubergeons, and archer's sallets.

[Cian of Storvik]

I've been trying to get my kit more period for SCA combat archery to look like a 15th cen (cir 1415) English garrisoned archer (near the welsh border).
I wish I'd seen this board before I went through the trouble of getting all of this stuff:
Currenty, I have a gambeson (thigh length) with points, and using a Merc Tailor plackard. I have an open faced ridge-top sallet (from iron monger), and articulated limbs from Stonekeep (unfluted Gothic with full creased spade fans only on the knees). The knees are on top of formed greaves, due to comfort issues (I don't like legs that hang from my waist).

I'm starting to think this is all a bit too much steel for a simple garrisoned bowman. Maybe I should go with:

Body: A kidney belt under a padded gambeson
Arms: Elbow pads under the gambeson.
Legs: No clue...Most ELBmen are depicted with no knee defenses. I'm not going to try to get my legs in hosen while wearing knee pads.
Neck: Brigandined standard
Hands: I have to stick with half gaunts (no other options really).

Any suggestions? Any clue where to get elbow pads that are SCA legal (that wrap around to the arm crease)?

The elbows and knees I have are actually very comfortable. But they just seem like too much for an archer.
-Cian

[T. Finkas]

Firespitter,

For HYW era you see archers depicted in cap-a-pie harness as well as little more than linen shirt and wool hosen! So almost any amount of armour from none to full can be accounted for. I'd say you are in great shape. Besides, the more armour one wears as a CA the more respect one seems to get from the fighters who are non-CA (YMMV).

Just my 2 groats!
Tim

[goon]

At the risk of committing thread necromancy yet again on this thread, I figured I'd bring this one back up.

After a couple failed attempts at even finding some SCA people near me, I've finally located some!

And I'm also contemplating pretty much the same persona - an Engish Archer from around the mid 1400's.
Would a barbute be out of place?

[RandallMoffett]

Goon,

By your period many archers are garrison troops and can be fairly well armed. The barbute does not seem to have been popular in England... not even sure if it was in Northern France so I'd go with something else if can be helped.

Cian,

Basically they'd be in what anyone else at the time was in related to their status etc. There is a Moffett in a welsh garrison in the early 15th listed as an archer. This is interesting as the Moffetts of the time are landed and have some 11 large land holding family groups with 3 being Scottish lairds which are baron level there. So either way this gent is related likely to a esquire, knight or baron level figure and is serving as an archer. You can see that men often of knightly families fought in various places from archer to men at arms.

To add to previous topics.

From a 1336 Patent Roll order by Edward III to his men all archers were required to have a bascinet (no mention of visor as similar earlier ones regarding MAA and Hobelars do), aketon, COP and gauntlets. We have similar orders throughout the period. Supposedly Henry VI orders all archers to have a jack, sallet, sword, bow and two sheaves of arrows but I can only find repeat orders from later kings.

In the end it depends on when, who you were and how you served. A gentry level archer would be mounted with some nice defensive armour. A levied archer would be likely on foot and with less arms and armour.


RPM

[goon]

At the risk of committing thread necromancy yet again on this thread, I figured I'd bring this one back up.

After a couple failed attempts at even finding some SCA people near me, I've finally located some!

And I'm also contemplating pretty much the same persona - an Engish Archer from around the mid 1400's.
Would a barbute be out of place?

Alright, I'll throw in a sacrificial chicken; where do you live and how far have you gotten on your archer persona?

I'm in PA.
About all I've done this far is get a couple books.
One is the Osprey English Archer of the Hundred years war book, another called The Great Warbow is on the way right now.
I'm also going to need a bow. I've been looking at the ones Rudderbows makes...
I'm planning to build my kit slowly, starting with a bow so I can shoot archery with the SCA while I get my stuff together. Eventually I want to do CA/combat.


Randall - would an open faced Sallet be more accurate for this period? I've also thought about going a little earlier and using a bascinet.

FWIW, I settled on being an archer in this period because it offers a lot of flexibilty. But that also means it requires a lot of research.

[RandallMoffett]

Goon,

For the culture and region I think so. They appear common by 1420s I'd guess, though you see helmets like them in the Pistoia alter from the mid 14th. You can get away with a bascinet on an archer most of the first half of the 15th as well. In probate records in York I find them till mid century all the time.

My advisor Anne Curry has done loads of research on the garrisons of English Normandy so I'd have a look around those. Something very interesting is that after the English basically abandon the area many archers and other soldiers stay in France. Since many had married and settled down or were even French to start with this makes sense. Also interesting the companies of Charles VII come up right around this disbanding.

RPM

[Russ Mitchell]

You're studying under Curry??? Oh, you lucky dog. She's all kinds of amazing.

I'd like to toss in something. I wasn't able to carry a lot of gifts with me to Crossroads in Time, sadly, but I gave a gent at Crossroads in Time a cuirie cut with the cotehardie-ish silhouette, and it instantly changed the way his mail sat on him, making it look much more like what you see in the period artwork.

I'm pretty sure Jehan can back me up on the change in appearance. I used a leather I'd worked myself, but any fairly thick but soft leather ought to do.

[goon]

Goon,

For the culture and region I think so. They appear common by 1420s I'd guess, though you see helmets like them in the Pistoia alter from the mid 14th. You can get away with a bascinet on an archer most of the first half of the 15th as well. In probate records in York I find them till mid century all the time.

My advisor Anne Curry has done loads of research on the garrisons of English Normandy so I'd have a look around those. Something very interesting is that after the English basically abandon the area many archers and other soldiers stay in France. Since many had married and settled down or were even French to start with this makes sense. Also interesting the companies of Charles VII come up right around this disbanding.

RPM

Thank you.
That's also interesting about English soldiers choosing to stay in France. Did they stay in groups? I'd just think that the French may not have been too friendly to a single English soldier or archer but as a group, they'd probably be enough of a threat that they could mostly just be left alone.
But that's just speculation.
Or did they just gain acceptance by becoming part of the local fighting force?
Stuff like is why I love history - it's wonderfully complex. Some of the historic weapons I've owned still had scars from old battles. One had some blood pitting - I really wish it could have told me its story.


I'm thinking that I'm going to start with either a Bascinet or Sallet and a gambeson (had plans for this for awhile now that just never got off the ground). Would coats-of-plates be common for archers? And for what period would a brigandine be accurate?
Just trying to get ideas. I'd like to do CA and combat eventually and both have advantages. I'd imagine that a brigandine would almost give enough protection to my torso and kidneys on its own and would probably be cooler than a gambeson. But the gambeson should be fairly simple to make. I've already located some sources for cotton quilt batting and for some heavy linen. The gambeson should also allow me to cover up some rigid armor underneath to give me good protection for getting slapped around.
I'd also like my stuff to be fairly accurate if possible because I'd like to do some living history type stuff as well.

Any more advice or insight would be appreciated.

[RandallMoffett]

Goon,

First off, the context. The garrison archers in some cases are not treated well but many seem to have 'settled' in the area of their castle or town they were protecting and when the shift from English to French king came many stayed as they had homes, wives, families, etc there. To be fair the ones who get worse treatment are the campaign armies if they break up as they usually go place to place taking goods and looting so they get more backlashes. Garrisons for much on the occupation were forbidden from doing this and on fair to good terms. If you look at it in context it is important. These men have been working in a garrison for 10 plus years at times.... maybe twice that. They have been out of England for a fair time and are locally established, which was wisely promoted often by the English leadership much of the time. Henry VI showed himself as a disinterested king and offered nearly 0 help to his foreign men until the entire English territories of the English in France were already/nearly taken. It is hard to show loyalty to someone as inept and after Bedford dies you have little decent English leadership on a long term.

I'd get an aketon/gambeson made first and then a helmet. Both your helmet selections are great for early 15th. Bascinet for 14th though. You could then use a COP from 1330 on in the 14th and a brig sometime in the 1st quarter of the 15th. Torso armour was fairly common for archers, a aketon or jack nearly always the base requirement with a bascinet or sallet and after this comes a COP and gaunts in official orders.

RPM

[Karl Helweg]

At the risk of committing thread necromancy yet again on this thread, I figured I'd bring this one back up.

After a couple failed attempts at even finding some SCA people near me, I've finally located some!

And I'm also contemplating pretty much the same persona - an Engish Archer from around the mid 1400's.
Would a barbute be out of place?

Alright, I'll throw in a sacrificial chicken; where do you live and how far have you gotten on your archer persona?

I'm in PA.
About all I've done this far is get a couple books.
One is the Osprey English Archer of the Hundred years war book, another called The Great Warbow is on the way right now.
I'm also going to need a bow. I've been looking at the ones Rudderbows makes...
I'm planning to build my kit slowly, starting with a bow so I can shoot archery with the SCA while I get my stuff together. Eventually I want to do CA/combat.


Randall - would an open faced Sallet be more accurate for this period? I've also thought about going a little earlier and using a bascinet.

FWIW, I settled on being an archer in this period because it offers a lot of flexibilty. But that also means it requires a lot of research.

There are lots of good longbows out there for lots of money. In the mean time I recommend buying a nice inexpensive bow that you will not be ashamed of to practice and maybe even do combat archery with. This gentleman has been very good to deal with. Tommy makes laminated wood longbows (flat) for about $60.00 that shoot as well as any fibreglass starter bow and look far more appropriate for now.

Tommy & Marion Clontz
1095 Lumbley Rd.
Rainbow City, AL 35906
(256)442-5779

He doesn't do e-mail. Combat archery is strictly limited to 30# pull at 28" if you care to go that route.

Three Rivers can help too. Tommy might be willing to mount these horn nocks for you: http://www.3riversarchery.com/Primitive ... thumb.html

[goon]

There are lots of good longbows out there for lots of money. In the mean time I recommend buying a nice inexpensive bow that you will not be ashamed of to practice and maybe even do combat archery with. This gentleman has been very good to deal with. Tommy makes laminated wood longbows (flat) for about $60.00 that shoot as well as any fibreglass starter bow and look far more appropriate for now.

Tommy & Marion Clontz
1095 Lumbley Rd.
Rainbow City, AL 35906
(256)442-5779

He doesn't do e-mail. Combat archery is strictly limited to 30# pull at 28" if you care to go that route.

Three Rivers can help too. Tommy might be willing to mount these horn nocks for you: http://www.3riversarchery.com/Primitive ... thumb.html

Thanks. I'll be following up those leads when I get a chance. A somewhat traditional CA bow for $60 sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
I also thought that 50 pounds was the limit for using siloflex arrows which was what I was planning to use if possible - just seems safer to me than shooting a "real" arrow with a huge point that can come off and maybe hurt someone.

[Ancel fitzCharles]

It may depend on whether you are in the East Kingdom or Aethelmearche (sic) part of PA. I think there are some rules differences. Also, you should check out the SCA Missile Combat group on Yahoo. You can get a lot of good info on the subject.
Ancel

[goon]

Thanks. I'm in Aethelmerc but it's safe to say that my king has no idea that I even exist yet.
I have a somewhat local guy who's been helping me out with a lot of my questions. He said that he's a little fuzzy on the CA rules too but he's checking into it for me.
In the mean time, I ordered a PSE longbow. I'd been eyeing them up for over a year and they have lots of good reviews - and my trusty recurve developed a split in one of the limbs a couple weeks ago so it's time to retire it. The PSE will most likely only get used for target archery at this point and even there, I still have a lot of work to do before it would be worth trying to compete there. (I'm planning to start with target archery because that seems a little easier for me to get into than combat).
I'm planning to try to find something used or less expensive to use for CA when I get to that point so if it gets trampled or broken I won't be out much.
The ones that Karl Helweg mentioned might be just about right for that - but I suspect that I'd be a little saddened by the loss of any good bow, regardless of price.
OTOH, they are made to be used...

[Whitetre]

While there are multiple depictions of fully-armored archers, we have to remember that those represent the archer bodyguards to a lord, not the rank'n'file.

Case in point: http://www.crc-internet.org/images/may2e.jpg

So for someone trying to impresonnate an archer of that period, I would personnaly go for a low armor profile, with jack and sallet preferably. That outfit would represent a fairly well-to-do archer, with maybe a plackart if you must have armor (such as in the martyrdom of St-Ursula; archer on the extreme left) http://www.abcgallery.com/M/memling/memling2.html

Hugo

interesting that the nearly naked (armor-wise) on the left is pointed out.. did everybody notice the fully armored archer on the far right? I thought it ironic...

[chef de chambre]

...So for someone trying to impresonnate an archer of that period, I would personnaly go for a low armor profile, with jack and sallet preferably. That outfit would represent a fairly well-to-do archer, with maybe a plackart if you must have armor (such as in the martyrdom of St-Ursula; archer on the extreme left) http://www.abcgallery.com/M/memling/memling2.html

Hugo

The Memling image is 50 years or so after the fall of Calais in 1453, and that's very late 100YW. I am very fond of the archer's look shown in the St. Ursala piece, but it seems more Wars of the Roses to me than Hundred Years War. Doncha think?

Tim

Actually, it is not that great a gap. It is 36 years between the fall of Gascony in 1453, and the completion of Memmelings painting, so you are looking at one generation, not two. Other than for some of the 'antique' neo-classical armour, you could take any footsoldier in the kit from that image, plop them down on the field at Castillon, and nobody would notice the difference on either side.

Bordeaux fell in 1453, Calais remained English until the reign of Queen Mary, in the 1550's.

[Oskar der Drachen]

This is a bit earlier, but I dodn't want to start a whole new thread for a single question.

I've been asked to make a buckler for an English Longbowman, that is earlier than this, 1200's.

What would be the way to go? The easiest is a single circle of metal, boss dished in the middle and a rolled edge.

Is this too sophisticated for the earlier time period? Would it be more accurate to have 1/4 sheets, riveted along the seams, a separate boss riveted from the back and some sort of edge treatment?

Is this is appropriate, what kind of edge treatment?

[Fearghus Macildubh]

http://freywild.ch/i33/i33en.html The I.33 manuscript is from the 1200s. It looks like the bucklers in the manuscript images are wood and metal, not completly metal. Completly metal bucklers are a post mid 14th century development, I think.

[chef de chambre]

I concur regarding bucklers. It should probably be a convex wood buckler, with a probable leather cover, and an iron boss, edging, and banding - some of the ironwork on these are quite decorative, going by extant Swedish examples.