I Wanna Be a 11th C. to mid-12th C. Norman

[cristofre fortescu]

For SCA combat, there is not much you can do without having an aventail hanging off your helm, and a butted mail one will not work. It would just fall apart.

C

[Christophe de Frisselle]

Romanesque art from 11th & 12th century French cathedrals.
Frescoes, Mosaics, Stained Glass Windows, Paintings, Capitals, etc.

http://www.art-roman.net/index.htm

More arts from French cathedrals

http://www.romanes.com/

[David de Clermont]

www.romanes.com seems to be a bad link?

[Christophe de Frisselle]

Works for me.

[David de Clermont]

Man, I *swear* it was broken earlier... It sent me to some medieval web ring... Works now, though! Thanks for the links!!

[RalphRivard]

is there such thing as a french norman

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Normandy is in France and the Normans spoke french, so I suppose you could say so... Originally the Normans were Scandinavian vikings who were settled in Normandy by the King of France in order to prevent them from causing any more trouble for him, in the year 919 (or maybe 909?) Within a couple of generations they were pretty French socially and culturally, though. They dug it. Oui, oui.

-Gerhard

[RalphRivard]

if you were like late 13th century with a conical helm steel knees and elbows would that still be a norman
thats what my armor looks like

[LdEskel]

This is relevant to my interests, my persona is a Norman Sheriff around 1090.

Everyone says "BAYEAUX TAPESTRY LOL." But I doubt that a sheriff would have knocked about in full battle of hastings gear. That is like assuming athat a modern polices officer in LA would be equipped like a marine in Fallujah.

Another thing people say is PUT A SURCOAT OVER IT!!! Except surcoats are a crusades sort of thing and just a little after what I am going for.

What other looks might be available to a late 11th C Norman? Tunic with hidden armor? I imagine they would have worn a lot of cloaks and mantles, but fighting in a half-circle cape sounds dubious.
I don't think ring-armor or scale would have been unheard of.

[Christophe de Frisselle]

Googling "Norman sheriff 1090" comes up with a few names you could research. Adding Medieval might get more results.
http://goo.gl/3XYx4


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picot_of_Cambridge
Picot of Cambridge
Born in Saye, Normandy, he rose from obscurity to become Sheriff of Cambridgeshire as early as 1071 until at least 1090.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ma ... _conquest)
William Malet

Reginald de Cornhill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_de_Cornhill
"... after York was captured in 1068, he was appointed the first High Sheriff of Yorkshire..."

Baldwin FitzGilbert(d.1090), also known as Baldwin de Brionne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_de_Brionne

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sheri ... s_of_Devon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Brewer_(justice)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reynell_(knight)

and something to find from Google Books:
http://goo.gl/yj9rr

The Medieval English Sheriff to 1300
By William Alfred Morris


Should get you a good start.

[LdEskel]

So if we are talking about the 1100s, wouldn't pot-helms and great helms be on the scene? As i understand, they were being used in the second crusade.
I prefer the Great-helm look to the nasal and aventail thing, so I wear one, even if it is a bit of a stretch.

And thanks to De Frisselle for the lead

[Ernst]

No.

[Vigulfr]

Great helms didn't become popular until the mid 13th century, your looking more for a spangen helm. You might be able to get away with a basicenett (SP?) or klappvisor.

[Ernst]

Bascinets, and especially klappvisiered ones, are much further along the timeline than the previously requested "pot helm". In the 3rd Crusade, helmets tend to be one-piece skulls with hemispheric bowls. Conical helms are still around. There are some early experiments where nasals are shaped like inverted-Ts, or some early spectacle or face masks attached to these conical or rounded top helmets.

[Christophe de Frisselle]

Mostly you would see variation on the point top nasal helm.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1120545523 ... umentation
All the photos in the above album are iconography from the first half of the 12th century.
You do see some face helms later in the century. At the very end, the last 5 to 10 years, you see the early flat top helms. The earliest I've seen for a full coverage tophelhelm is 1225. Wish I could find that effigy again. It was also listed in the knight's will, so it was produced and used sometime before that. The style was in common use by 1250. You are about 60 years to early and too far North, England, to be using anything other than a nasal helm.

[LdEskel]

Hmm. It seems that I was misled by a number of images of great helms labled as "second crusade" in conjunction with wishful thinking.

[Paladin74]

It'd be nice if that were the case but don't worry- you are not the first nor the last to want to think so.

[LdEskel]

I have gotten a taste of SCA rapier and I am pretty much hooked.
How crazy would it be to do light combat with a Norman-looking kit?

I think it could be done pretty easily (since I don't like those poofy, slashed late-period styles anyway)As for the weapons, I'd probably stick to simple-looking quillions. I've seen small Kite-shields used in rapier, so no problem there.
The real question is how to make a fencing mask look like a nasal helm.

[RandallMoffett]

1100s is 100 years where there is development so what part of the century?

1100ish-1150ish

If you are a commoner your starter is clothes on your back, tunic and pants or braes, spear and shield. Better armed perhaps a mail shirt with likely short to elbow length sleeves and not super long with some type of simple helmet.

knightly, same clothing of better quality, mail hauberk, likely elbow length but long sleeves are becoming more common from what we are seeing in art. Some may have mail chausses but they seem sort of less common and some type of helmet, likely conical with a nasal.

upper knightly/noble class/ More or less above but you could be in head to toe mail. if you have a mail hood it is integrated during this period.

1150s on we see the knightly class will increasingly be in head to toe mail with a helmet. You also have the start of aketons for both commoners and knightly/noble class. The William the Breton exceprt about Richard I includes mail and an aketon.

By 1180s we have the face plate appearing as well. Mostly in upper noble class I assume as they show up in top tier noble seals.William the Breton in the early 1200s mentions iron plates used with mail and aketons as well for the later 12th century.

Some ideas. By the 1220s-1230s great helms are in use and replacing the simple conical, round, funny anglular helmet popular in the HRE and the simple top with face plate for the increasingly complete great helm. This does not likely ever completely overtake the older models but they become more and more common by 1250ish.

I have most of a 13th century harness together. Fun period. I am still trying to figure out if an English knight would be weaing a nearly knee lenght but only elbow length hauberk for this period and from my looking it looks unlikely it was as common as the mitten or long sleeved ones.

RPM

[Alailtheflail]

im looking for pictures of a Norman Sir-coat and garb. does anyone have ldeas of where to look?

[Ernst]

Normandy, after c. 1210 ad? Not meaning to be snarky, but as it's been noted before in this thread and countless others, you're not going to find any surcoats before 1180, and not many before c.1210.

[Thomas MacFinn]

My interest right now is on weaponry. Any advice on hand protection?

I'm not happy settling for "anything/everything is out of period".

[Kormak]

Low profile browned/blackened finger gaunts would be your best stealth option .. Darken them to look like gloves at 10ft.. Sir Uric, blackoak on the AA, has a pair and they look awesome.. Other wise i think maille mittens, over hockey or lacrosse gloves.. Sir Amos, brother amos here i think, has a set he wears with his fighting frair rig.. Looks pretty nifty as well..

[Henrik Granlid]

Note that you should check with your local and kingdom marshal to see what the minimum protection underneath mail mittens should be since they are not, by definition, rigid material. Thusly, lacross gloves may or may not be allowed and street hockey gloves are not strong enough.

[Konstantin the Red]

. . . Any advice on hand protection?

I'm not happy settling for "anything/everything is out of period".

Well, Thomas, are you motivated $1000.00 worth? Darkwood Armoury's springsteel Stealth gaunts, the metal covered over with black leather that looks somewhat padded. The whole effort looks like a big black glove studded with rivets and steely knuckles.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=172796&hilit=stealth+gauntlets

This is going to be about as good as you can find, this year.

Aidan's, last year

[Lorccan]

Well, Thomas, are you motivated $1000.00 worth? Darkwood Armoury's springsteel Stealth gaunts, the metal covered over with black leather that looks somewhat padded. The whole effort looks like a big black glove studded with rivets and steely knuckles.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=172796&hilit=stealth+gauntlets

This is going to be about as good as you can find, this year.

Thanks for the mention, Konstantin!
I should note that future pairs will have the visible plates AND rivets fully blackened - I exhausted the last of our blackening solution on the pair pictured, or they would have been there, too! Thus, the illusion of a black glove ought to be more complete & effective.
All the plates in the gauntlet are made of hardened & tempered 410 spring stainless, and the hand and fingers are padded with neoprene.
I just heat-treated parts to make large, extra large, and extra extra large pairs!

[clash4063]

I am going for 11th - 12th c. Norman and was wondering if Leather Bazubands was not Period or would there been a chance for them to use them?

thank you

[Jestyr]

I am going for 11th - 12th c. Norman and was wondering if Leather Bazubands was not Period or would there been a chance for them to use them?

thank you

No. There is no evidence (that I am aware of) where any arm armour is accurate. Therefore, regardless of what you wear for protection, all arm amour should be covered.

That said, many people who do earlier period kits use leather bazubands as they are fairly easy to cover.

[clash4063]

awe ok cool.. thank you Jestyr for the info.. ill work on covering up my arm and leg armor

[Lorccan]

awe ok cool.. thank you Jestyr for the info.. ill work on covering up my arm and leg armor

If you're going to cover it (heartily encouraged!), a floating vambrace & elbow cop combo will usually be easier to deal with than a bazuband. Bazubands extend far enough past the elbow that you'll need fuller sleeves (when the right look is more fitted), and will make it harder to get your fighting garb off because of snagging issues.
Depending on the style, metal or plastic elbows may be lower profile than thick leather ones, so better for your purpose.

[Jestyr]

a floating vambrace & elbow cop combo will usually be easier to deal with than a bazuband.

I have found this to be the case and prefer it over the buzubands.

This is the design I use:
http://www.customchainmail.com/2014/03/ ... ca-combat/

That said, a lot of people still like the bazus to cover. Greenshield's kits are among the best and he uses leather buzubands (see page 1 of this thread).

[Egfroth]

Arm protection for an 11th century Norman would have been mail sleeves for the hauberk about to elbow level. They appear to have been fairly wide sleeves (though the Bayeux Tapestry shows William of Normandy and his half brother Odo wearing extra mail on the arms underneath, reaching the wrists, additional to these).

This arm protection stayed the same for the first half of the 12th century, depending on region and status. As we move into the second half of 12th century, the sleeves get longer - to wrist length - and narrower, and then develop basic hand protection in the form of "mufflers" (fingerless mittens) built into the sleeve from about 1170 onwards.

So as mentioned above, any rigid armour you plan to wear to protect your arms should be able to be hidden, either under the mail sleeve, or if on the lower arm for the earlier style. under the fabric sleeve of your tunic.

[clash4063]

ok perfect.. thank you so much for the help.. looks like i will have to find a good cheap place to get chain Hauberk, that can stand up to the fighting

[William of Otterton]

Crossbows in England?

I'm very much wanting to keep developing my portrayal of someone in Devon during the wars between Stephen and Matilda during the early-mid 12C. However, I'm wanting to use a crossbow for my target archery as my shoulder just can't take the strain of a more typical bow any more. Am I right out to lunch on this idea? I've bounced off a few comments online that Henry I had a number of crossbowmen but some of that may be coming from Payne-Gallwey, and I can't verify the sources.

Also, if that works would padded gambeon and a Norman conical be suitable with it?

Thanks!

[Owen Longstrider]

My SCA persona is an English Third Crusader (1190s), so I would have been wearing a gambeson, mail shirt, possibly mail chausses (leggings), and usually a conal helmet; basically what the Normans at that time were wearing. I did add a surcoat and gamboised cuisesses (thighs) since my persona extends into the first half of the 1200s, but the basic attire armor-wise is still similar. From the drawing below, for my Chivalric combat suit, the arms I am currently working on will be plastic lames attached to a steel single-piece elbowcop, all sewn between cloth to look like the sleeves of a gambeson, the legs will consist of boots covered in mail to look like a pair of mail chausses, with gamboised cuisesses consisting of plastic lames and a kneecop sewn between cloth. Other than that, I wear an under tunic, a leather kidney belt, mail half-shirt and skirt (makes it look like I am wearing a full shirt but 10 pounds lighter), gorget, and conal helmet with mail aventail.