I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
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http://www.levantia.com.au/ is back online! Three cheers for Doctor Tim!
I'd like to hear some other opinions on "zabai". They're recommended over padded forearm protection, and over kremasmata (padded skirts). Are these just strips that are sewn on somewhat in the way Western armour uses solid metal splints, or do they cover the entire armour item? And, could they be something other than maille? None of the online Greek-English translators have an entry for zabai, or zaba.
I'd like to hear some other opinions on "zabai". They're recommended over padded forearm protection, and over kremasmata (padded skirts). Are these just strips that are sewn on somewhat in the way Western armour uses solid metal splints, or do they cover the entire armour item? And, could they be something other than maille? None of the online Greek-English translators have an entry for zabai, or zaba.
Last edited by Bob H on Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I recall reading an analysis of Byzantine armour (can't remember which one - might have been Taxiarchis Kolias' paper) which said that the meaning of zabai has been lost, but it could possibly be mail, as one source talks about carrying a zaba rolled up in a bag.
Sorry I can't be any more help than that.
Sorry I can't be any more help than that.
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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It is really depressing that the links for this thread are all dead. Levantia seems to be offline and Geocities has shut down all of its sites. Does anyone know if the original pages have been updated to new locations?
Lord Carlyle
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Squire to Sir Gaius Tascius Severus Fabianus
Warlord of the Sergeants of St. Aiden
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My website hasn't been resurrected since Geocities died (though I've kept the pages as files). However, I've updated most of my links today (14 Feb 2014) so they work again.
Last edited by Egfroth on Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Dawson's books are very good, especially for reenactors and SCAdians. Having seen them, I wouldn't attempt Byzantine "banded" lamellar without looking at his works and those of Egfroth. It's a deceptively simply thing after you've seen it, but most SCA lamellar I've seen is dead wrong and doesn't work as it should. No fault there, the information hasn't been public all that long, but if you're making a new kit I'd look over both sources carefully.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
Levantia is online -- http://www.levantia.com.au/
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
Thought you'd like this link regarding Byzantine limb defences . . .
written by Christobel and Peter in Australia.
And a selection (on Youtube) from the 12th century Byzantine Skylitzes Chronicle with some nice contemporary pics of warriors in their equipment here.
written by Christobel and Peter in Australia.
And a selection (on Youtube) from the 12th century Byzantine Skylitzes Chronicle with some nice contemporary pics of warriors in their equipment here.
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
I followed your link Egfroth and found another video along the same lines: http://youtu.be/TKh4pRZmj50 The question about thie second video is accuracy. It shows quite a bit of lamellar that looks to be laced plate to plate without the leathe backing, how accurate is that? Some good looking pictures, all modern representations, but questioning the accuracy.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
Yep, reconstructions based on various original illustrations and perhaps a fair bit of imagination. Steel lamellar without leather backing certainly existed, at least in the 6th century or thereabouts. It may also have been used by other races considerably later. Banded lamellar seems to have been a specifically Byzantine thing - at least nobody else seems to have shown it. But the evidence is so thin on the ground that there's a heck of a lot of room for interpretation.
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
Walters Museum of Art,T'oros Roslin Gospel MS W.539.116V, (Armenian, active 1256-1268)
http://art.thewalters.org/images/art/la ... _fp_dd.jpg
MS W.539.190R
http://art.thewalters.org/images/art/la ... _fp_dd.jpg
http://art.thewalters.org/browse/creator/toros-roslin/
St.George
http://art.thewalters.org/images/art/la ... 01iv-2.jpg
http://art.thewalters.org/detail/25974/ ... he-dragon/
http://art.thewalters.org/images/art/la ... _fp_dd.jpg
MS W.539.190R
http://art.thewalters.org/images/art/la ... _fp_dd.jpg
http://art.thewalters.org/browse/creator/toros-roslin/
St.George
http://art.thewalters.org/images/art/la ... 01iv-2.jpg
http://art.thewalters.org/detail/25974/ ... he-dragon/
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
Biblioteca Nacional de Espana MSS Vitr/26/2 History of Byzantium from the late 12th or early 13th century, armor begins appearing at -31jpg and appears quite frequently afterwards.
http://bibliotecadigitalhispanica.bne.e ... ple_viewer
http://bibliotecadigitalhispanica.bne.e ... ple_viewer
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
Oh, Glory and Trumpets! That's yer actual Skylitzes Chronicle!
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
If you read Greek the script is very clear as well! Nice find. Wish most of my MS were wrote this clear.....
RPM
RPM
Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
The armor images are saved and cropped already. I've spoken with Galfid (effigiesandbrasses.com / manuscriptminiatures.com) before about adding Byzantine/Armenian manuscripts to the site, and he's been open to the idea since there's interest in the community.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/ ... ew=gallery
I can send the cropped images to him if that would be easier access for others.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/ ... ew=gallery
I can send the cropped images to him if that would be easier access for others.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
Hey, side note for SCA people doing this -- your thrust-and-throw javelins are ABSOLUTELY legit here. I don't have the article handy (and it's in Hungarian which like one total other archiver besides me reads), but in a couple of the Byzantinomagyar dustups, cavalrymen throwing javelins is mentioned explicitly.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
Thought I'd add a few pics from my own collection. There are several from photos I took in the "Dovecote" church, which is carved into the side of a volcanic rock cliff in Chavushin in the Go"reme valley in Kappadokia, when I visited there in 1990. These are military saints from a frieze on the church wall of the Forty Martyrs of Sebaste, dating to the reign of Nikephoros II Ouranos 963-969 AD, many with names written on the wall next to them, as follows: St Akakios, St Bebianos (or Vevianos), St Eliakos, St Esukhios, St Eunoikos, St Kapiklarios, St Mikalos (Michael), unknown saint, unknown saint, 3 unknown saints, unknown saint, and a detail from one of the two mounted figures in the frieze, showing scale armour over mail.
There are others in this group which are not in these links and I will add them as attachments when I get the chance.
The great value of these pictures produced in regional areas is that they are far enough away from Constantinople to be relatively free of the "classicising" tendency of the capital in particular, where artists simply copied old examples, so they got progressively more and more out of date and unrealistic. The regional ones are more likely to reflect what was actually being worn. And have a look at the variety or types of armour in even this relatively small group - scale, lamellar, different configurations of armour, different leg protection and waist protection. Byzantine armour wasn't all the same, by any means, and this example in particular shows how wide the variation could be, even in the same time and place.
There are also an 11th century ikon of St George carved from steatite rock, and another of St Theodore which has had the shield mutilated by a western owner (perhaps the ikon was stolen by the soldiers of the Fourth Crusade) to show his own coat of arms.
I believe the best way to get historical accuracy in one's portrayal is to make it as close an approximation to the originals as one can, based on contemporary representations and archaeological finds (which are sadly rather thin on the ground when it comes to Byzantine arms and armour). So here's some contemporary representations for you to help with your portrayal.
Hope these are of interest and of use.
There are others in this group which are not in these links and I will add them as attachments when I get the chance.
The great value of these pictures produced in regional areas is that they are far enough away from Constantinople to be relatively free of the "classicising" tendency of the capital in particular, where artists simply copied old examples, so they got progressively more and more out of date and unrealistic. The regional ones are more likely to reflect what was actually being worn. And have a look at the variety or types of armour in even this relatively small group - scale, lamellar, different configurations of armour, different leg protection and waist protection. Byzantine armour wasn't all the same, by any means, and this example in particular shows how wide the variation could be, even in the same time and place.
There are also an 11th century ikon of St George carved from steatite rock, and another of St Theodore which has had the shield mutilated by a western owner (perhaps the ikon was stolen by the soldiers of the Fourth Crusade) to show his own coat of arms.
I believe the best way to get historical accuracy in one's portrayal is to make it as close an approximation to the originals as one can, based on contemporary representations and archaeological finds (which are sadly rather thin on the ground when it comes to Byzantine arms and armour). So here's some contemporary representations for you to help with your portrayal.
Hope these are of interest and of use.
Last edited by Egfroth on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
Here are some more pics from the Dovecote Church; One horseman has label next to his name - he is a Magister (a position in the Byzantine hierarchy) named Melias. The other is unknown, though there's been a suggestion from Raffael d'Amato that he's intended to represent John Tzimiskes, who overthrew Nikephoros Ouranos and became Emperor in his place. Note that you can see mail just below the neck of this figure, presumably indicating he's wearing his scale corselet over a mail lorikion
And the guy at the right hand end of the frieze next to the horsemen - the only one on foot carrying a spear as the cavalrymen are. IMHO these spears appear to be made of bamboo, which grows wild in Kappadokia.
I think there are more guys in the frieze than I've included here, but I'll have to check through them to see which ones are still missing.
In the meantime - enjoy!
And the guy at the right hand end of the frieze next to the horsemen - the only one on foot carrying a spear as the cavalrymen are. IMHO these spears appear to be made of bamboo, which grows wild in Kappadokia.
I think there are more guys in the frieze than I've included here, but I'll have to check through them to see which ones are still missing.
In the meantime - enjoy!
- Attachments
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- magister melias.JPG (81.15 KiB) Viewed 3748 times
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- Unknown horseman Dovecote Church.JPG (81.34 KiB) Viewed 3748 times
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- Dovecte spearman.JPG (37.47 KiB) Viewed 3748 times
Last edited by Egfroth on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
More Byzantine armour from contemporary pictures. The first is St Ioanis (John) from the Forty Martyrs of the Dovecote Church, the others are labelled accordingly. BTW it's because of ikons like these that you get those outrageously over the top representations of Byzantine soldiers in certain Osprey books (see the thread on Varangian Guards here for some).
What are we to make of these bi-coloured klivania? I note that they only seem to occur in enamelled ikons, never on parchment paintings, frescoes etc. Maybe they're just a way of making the ikin more colourful? I don't think they should be taken seriously as accurately representing the colours of the armour. The decoration on such things as tunics, leggings etc on the other hand, may well be accurate representations of what was being worn, as they seem to appear in other media as well.
What are we to make of these bi-coloured klivania? I note that they only seem to occur in enamelled ikons, never on parchment paintings, frescoes etc. Maybe they're just a way of making the ikin more colourful? I don't think they should be taken seriously as accurately representing the colours of the armour. The decoration on such things as tunics, leggings etc on the other hand, may well be accurate representations of what was being worn, as they seem to appear in other media as well.
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- Ioanis.jpg (27.91 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
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- centurion 11th century crucifixion ikon Hermitage Museum.jpg (87.19 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
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- 13th cent St Theodore spearing dragon Hermitage Museum.jpg (85.1 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
Last edited by Egfroth on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
And more. Note the apparently rigid sleeve protection on Joshua, a very attractive sword and an aventail apparently just made of fabric - not much protection there - maybe it was just to keep the sun off? And the pseudo-arabic decoration on both helmet and aventail.
You may recognise the centurion from a very bad line drawing in the Osprey book "Byzantine Armies 886-1116". He appears to have a raven on his shield with a bit of cloth in its beak.
The soldiers have interesting helmets, each has a guige on his shield (the left-hand shield, by the way, could have come straight off the Bayeux Tapestry), the swords appear to have some sort of decorative streamers (or straps?) attached to the pommels and there are good details of the scabbard suspension for the sword on the right.
You may recognise the centurion from a very bad line drawing in the Osprey book "Byzantine Armies 886-1116". He appears to have a raven on his shield with a bit of cloth in its beak.
The soldiers have interesting helmets, each has a guige on his shield (the left-hand shield, by the way, could have come straight off the Bayeux Tapestry), the swords appear to have some sort of decorative streamers (or straps?) attached to the pommels and there are good details of the scabbard suspension for the sword on the right.
- Attachments
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- Joshua.JPG (61.59 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
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- centurion from an 11th century crucifixion ikon
- ikonCenturion.jpg (27.14 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
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- guards from the same ikon. Note the shields
- ikonSoldiers.jpg (96.34 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
And some more.
St George has a rather large round shield in the shape of a flattened cone - the border decoration is pseudo-arabic script. He has what appear to be puttees protecting his calves and you can only see the sleeves of his armour. The rest must be hidden under his gorgeous epilorikion
Nestor has a kite shield, as has the guy next to him (out of picture)
St George has a rather large round shield in the shape of a flattened cone - the border decoration is pseudo-arabic script. He has what appear to be puttees protecting his calves and you can only see the sleeves of his armour. The rest must be hidden under his gorgeous epilorikion
Nestor has a kite shield, as has the guy next to him (out of picture)
- Attachments
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- 13th or 14th century, think.
- StGeorge3.jpg (47 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
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- From a church in Greece. 12th century, I think.
- St_Nestor.jpg (99.18 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
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- military saint from one of the rock-carved churches in Kappadokia - probably mid 10th century
- military_saint.jpg (41.6 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
Egfroth
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It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
And yet more.
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- St Demetrios from Hosias Loukas Church
- DemetrioDetail.jpg (41.55 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
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- 11th century ikon carved from steatite rock
- StGeorgeSteatite.jpg (87.28 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
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- St Theodore Tyro Church of Hosios Loukas.GIF (69.7 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
And a couple of pics from the Madrid ]i]Skylitzes Chronicle[/i] of Byzantine cavalrymen actually on horseback!. Note the various armour and helmet styles, and the view (very rare) of an aventail seen from the back on the guy lying on the ground in the first pic.
Note: I've also put quite a number of pics of Byzantine armour on this thread which could be of use. Rather than duplcate them too much and use up the AA's file memory, I've just included this link for you so you can have a look.
Hope this helps.
Note: I've also put quite a number of pics of Byzantine armour on this thread which could be of use. Rather than duplcate them too much and use up the AA's file memory, I've just included this link for you so you can have a look.
Hope this helps.
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- Skylitzes aventail rear.jpg (49.88 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
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- Skylitzes assorted byzantine armour.jpg (95.54 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
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- Skylitzes assorted byzantine helmets.jpg (51.69 KiB) Viewed 3742 times
Last edited by Egfroth on Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
Oh, and one more, from the 14th century Church of Panagia Phorbiotissa of Asinou, near Nikitari in Cyprus. These appear to be ordinary soldiers and it's interesting to note the variation in their equipment. The one in fine scale armour to the right of Christ and Judas is holding a mace and is probably the officer. He has a flat conical shield (a bit hard to make out - it's seen side-on, so it looks like a triangle). All the aventails appear to be made of the same material, which I take to be mail. And as it's a night scene, there are a couple of torches as well.
- Attachments
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- Betrayal 14th century Cyprus.JPG (98.42 KiB) Viewed 3741 times
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
And details from a crucifixion pic from the "Buckle" church in Kappadokia - a centurion and two soldiers. Note particularly the touvia all are wearing as calf protection.
And St Demetrios from an 11th century ivory ikon. Interesting details here, too.
And St Demetrios from an 11th century ivory ikon. Interesting details here, too.
- Attachments
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- Centurion Buckle Church.JPG (72.59 KiB) Viewed 3730 times
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- soldiers buckle church.JPG (72.22 KiB) Viewed 3730 times
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- DemetriosIvory.jpg (48.04 KiB) Viewed 3730 times
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
And for LOTS of contemporary pictures (unfortunately most of which don't give dates) see HERE, plus a site HERE with several steatite (soapstone) ikons on it, some of which have already appeared above.
Last edited by Egfroth on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
And the centurion from a crucifixion fresco in the church of Nea Moni on the island of Khios (or Chios), who is the model for the Varangian Guardsman in the Osprey "Byzantine Armies 886-1118" book. Note, by the way, that he's holding his shield so the back is facing you.
Plus a couple more - details from a late 11th century fresco in the Serpent Church in the Go"reme valley in Kappadokia - St George and St Theodore.
Plus a couple more - details from a late 11th century fresco in the Serpent Church in the Go"reme valley in Kappadokia - St George and St Theodore.
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- Nea Moni Khios centurion.jpg (67.85 KiB) Viewed 3686 times
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- Late C11th SS George and Theodore Serpent Church Yilanyi Kilise detail 1.JPG (90.78 KiB) Viewed 3696 times
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- Late C11th SS George and Theodore Serpent Church Yilanyi Kilise detail 2.JPG (82.84 KiB) Viewed 3696 times
Last edited by Egfroth on Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
And a centurion from the crucifixion scene from the Pala d'Oro - the golden retable screen in St Mark's cathedral in Venice - many of the ikons of which, including this one, were looted from Byzantium by the Venetians during the Fourth Crusade of 1204.
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- Centurion Pala dOro.jpg (29.03 KiB) Viewed 3686 times
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Re: I WTB a Byzantine Cavalry officer C. 1050 -1250AD
New paper on Academia.edu
https://www.academia.edu/6305207/A_Byza ... sading_Era
https://www.academia.edu/6305207/A_Byza ... sading_Era
"Proecce ne Suffit" - Prowess is not enough
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