IWTB Irish in the Viking Invasion era (9thC +)

[Chuklz]

<Snip> RoC Ed

Oh, and lest I forget, the original snippit that sent me on this tangent came from the Gaelic reenactment group that Sav listed early on. Their source is "The Irish Sword" published by the Military History Society of Ireland.
http://www.mhsi.ie/thesword.htm

Failte!

[Biǫrn Hvithestr]

So I want to put together an SCA legal kit to represent a wealthy Norse-Gael Thane fighting as a member of the Dalcassian Cavalry under Brian Boru between 1000-1014.

I was thinking:
Easily hidden knee and elbow cops,
A maille hauberk,
A leather cuirass for decorative purposes.
A large round shield and an axe.

Plus a helm and gorget of some description.

[Lorccan]

A leather cuirass for decorative purposes.

There's really no way a decorative leather cuirass is going to fit the persona you've described. Maille and/or leather are the only body armors that should show, anything else should be hidden. I wear a Harrow box lacrosse rib belt <http://www.destinationathlete.com/Harro ... Men's.aspx> <http://www.harrowsports.com/Zing.asp?It ... 0&StoreID=>
with some extra plates for my shoulders, and it works very well.

[Lorccan]

Plus a helm and gorget of some description.

Appropriate helms would be based on the Gjermundbu helmet, or a simple conical with a nasal.
As for a gorget, it should be inconspicuous - either leather, leather-covered, or (even better) under a mail standard.

[Vigulfr]

So, I've been thinking about redoing my time period, I was originally thinking of doing 13th/14th century, but I like the ocular helms from the vikings and figured the Picts would have had something similar. Now the question I have is, after reading this thread, it seems that most of the early Scots didn't wear armor, and while this is noble of them, I find it a tad suicidal. Now, would it be unreasonable to put a heavy kit together that featured more viking influences without the change in geography? (I have my reasons!) Also, would it be unreasonable to think that a Mid-level Land-Owner would be able to afford Maille? (Or take it off a dead body as seen here (bottom of Page) or more likely that something like This could have been made relatively cheaply?

I am also curious if everyone wore an ankle length Léine or if it's possible to get away with a mid thigh length Léine and longer, looser, Trews similar in style to the Gent on the left? I have lots of armor I want to hide under my kit and the "traditional" Trews aren't going to work, though there is mention that some of them did cover the entire leg so it seems like it would be a viable option. Thoughts? (Sorry for the rant, I just want everything to be perfect before I go out on the field)

[Haldan]

but I like the ocular helms from the vikings and figured the Picts would have had something similar.

I gotta ask. What correlations brought you to this conclusion?

There has only been one find of a 'Viking Ocular' helm, the Gjermundbu(sp?) one and the date of it use is questionable. The Valsgarde helms are pre viking age (circa 800-1066).

[Vigulfr]

The vikings began invading what is now present day Scotland around the 8th century

Scotland was the site of the first recorded Viking raid when, in 793 AD, the monastery at Lindisfarne was sacked, with Iona and the Isle of Skye being attacked the next year.

(From here
It seems to me that with the multitude of invasions that the Vikings are known for, would have left many Vikings dead and battlefields ripe for the looting. Also the Sutton Hoo helm while ceremonial in and of itself seems like a less ceremonial version could have been used on the battlefield.

[Haldan]

It seems to me that with the multitude of invasions that the Vikings are known for, would have left many Vikings dead and battlefields ripe for the looting. Also the Sutton Hoo helm while ceremonial in and of itself seems like a less ceremonial version could have been used on the battlefield.

Ok, I'm really not trying to be an asshole here.

My next question would have to be "Do you want a kit based on what we know and can prove or do you want a kit that is, well, highly speculative at best?"

This would be a good resource:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=43165

[Vigulfr]

My next question would have to be "Do you want a kit based on what we know and can prove or do you want a kit that is, well, highly speculative at best?"

I just have an idea in my head and I like what I'm looking for. I know it's speculative, and I'm ok with that. I'm just curious if it's possible. My general idea is a chain hauberk over a simple tunic with loose fitting pants tucked into boots and an ocular helm with aventail to cover the grill in front and plates on the sides. Similar to the gent in the red as far as body is concerned.

[CiaranBlackrune]

If you're really Irish and even slightly wealthy get that leine down past your knees. They pulled the tunics up through their belt to shorten them when they needed to, so can you. I wouldn't wear the leg wraps, either.

[Vigulfr]

If you're really Irish and even slightly wealthy get that leine down past your knees. They pulled the tunics up through their belt to shorten them when they needed to, so can you. I wouldn't wear the leg wraps, either.

I don't plan on doing leg wraps, but thanks for the tip about the lien.

[branmacairrt]

There's an awful lot of good stuff in this thread, I just wanted to contribute two things.

1 - I've found Cattle Lords and Clansmen: The Social Structure of Early Ireland by Nerys T. Patterson to be a very useful book for my effort to pull off 950-ish Irish. Not a good guide for material culture in all respects, but excellent social info.

When you blouse your leine up some of the leg armour will show, but that's ok, everyone can already see your out of period gauntlets.

2 - I've been fighting in the SCA in a leine that ends just above my ankles for 6 years with no problems. It completely conceals my leg armour unless I jump up or fall down! If anything gets in the way, it's likely to be the brat, but I've worked that out pretty well, too.

My recent fighting leine are actually generously cut ionar with false cuffs, collars, and skirts added in to give the impression that I am wearing both layers (see below). Still very much a work in progress...

your kit is great it makes figuring mine out easier but how does fighting with the brat work. Also does the brooch pass inspection

[CiaranBlackrune]

There's an awful lot of good stuff in this thread, I just wanted to contribute two things.

1 - I've found Cattle Lords and Clansmen: The Social Structure of Early Ireland by Nerys T. Patterson to be a very useful book for my effort to pull off 950-ish Irish. Not a good guide for material culture in all respects, but excellent social info.

When you blouse your leine up some of the leg armour will show, but that's ok, everyone can already see your out of period gauntlets.

2 - I've been fighting in the SCA in a leine that ends just above my ankles for 6 years with no problems. It completely conceals my leg armour unless I jump up or fall down! If anything gets in the way, it's likely to be the brat, but I've worked that out pretty well, too.

My recent fighting leine are actually generously cut ionar with false cuffs, collars, and skirts added in to give the impression that I am wearing both layers (see below). Still very much a work in progress...

your kit is great it makes figuring mine out easier but how does fighting with the brat work. Also does the brooch pass inspection

"No capes!"
I have seen the brat go over the head a few times. Lorccan pulls it off pretty well. I don't like it, too much bulk for me.

Also, technically you don't need lower leg armour or pants. You can wear armour that stops below the knee, blouse up your leine up to just below your knee armour. Wear period shoes, show some leg!

[Lorccan]

Thank you, branmacairt!

If you practice with the brat, it works out pretty well. I fight in 25+ SCA tourneys a year, wearing the brat most of the time, and I've only had it really blind me 6 or 7 times since 2004 (at least two of those were from having to fight-off-handed, and forgetting to shift the brat from one shoulder to the other). Those are the occasions people remember, though!

When the brat actually flips over my head and renders me helpless like that, I yield the fight, because I brought my own hazard onto the field with me. Some of my opponents have insisted on carrying on the fight after I clear it, but I consider it a loss; just as if I had worn ill-fitting armor that slowed me down, or used an unfamiliar shield or weapon style that left me vulnerable to a telling blow, I am responsible for the strengths and weaknesses of my own equipment. As rarely as it is a problem, I consider it a small sacrifice to look better on the field.

Go with 'summerweight' or 'tropical' wool if you want to wear it in summer - it makes a HUGE difference.

The brooches I wear for fighting are made from 1/4" steel square stock, with blunt and stubby pins made from 1/8" round stock, so they pass inspection easily (and I have yet to wear one out, they just need hammering back into shape every year or two). Having brass grommets in my fighting brats makes them easier and faster to deal with, and makes it unnecessary to have a sharp brooch pin. You can easily dress up steel brooches with a bit of model enamel, too.

I have some more recent pictures of my kit I need to post, with several improvements. The problem is, especially now that I am making armor for a living, I keep thinking "one more upgrade, then I'll post pictures!" - and there's ALWAYS one more upgrade to go! I'll do it this week, though.

[branmacairrt]

i was planing on wearing a slightly below knee padded tunic with stratigicly (yes i know i cant spel) placed plastic plates since i get plastic barrels free!!! Lorccan could you make me a brooch or two or possibly point me in the right dirction to puchase one. Also looking for a helm gauntlets and a center boss for a shield. Ciaran i feel a geal would not go with out one i probably wont fight in torney with it for awhile tho.

[branmacairrt]

Also what would period shoes be I can't find documentation for um

[Lorccan]

Also what would period shoes be I can't find documentation for um

Your shortest path to shoe info is Marc Carlson's page:
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... OEHOME.HTM
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... SLIST2.HTM
Most documentable Irish shoes are basically slippers, so a lot of people doing SCA Irish fighting kits go with some sort of Jorvik/York toggled ankle boot (I'm one of them - Sir Ciaran is a snazzy exception in his ankle-baring, hand-made slippers ). It's a little bit of a stretch, but not entirely implausible.

[Lorccan]

i was planing on wearing a slightly below knee padded tunic with stratigicly (yes i know i cant spel) placed plastic plates since i get plastic barrels free!!!

If you're looking at making a coat of plates, take a look at the Wisby examples for patterns - the originals are still damned effective protection!

Lorccan could you make me a brooch or two or possibly point me in the right dirction to puchase one. Also looking for a helm gauntlets and a center boss for a shield.

I can make you a fighting brooch ($15 for blackened steel, $25 for polished), certainly, but my plate's pretty full right now. Can you please remind me after Pennsic, if I don't get back to you before then?
Since I'm making armor for a living these days, I suggest you check out our website for shield bosses, gauntlets (we're working on another style of Wisby-inspired finger gauntlets right now!), and other goodies.
Helmets are a little trickier subject - the actual Viking Age helm finds that would apply are almost nil. The Anglian Helmet from Coppergate is an outstanding book that's worth finding via inter-library loan (it's out of print, thus hard to find). Once you have a better idea what an ACTUAL Viking Age helm might have looked like, then you'll be much better equipped to shop for an SCA fighting helm. A simple conical or spangen helm with a nasal or occular and a mail drape (to cover the rest of the helm that would not originally be there!) is the most likely choice.

[branmacairrt]

Thank you for all your information i'd love a blackened one and i will remind you after Pennsic. i was thinking about a spangen helm with slat back blackened with stainless nasal and cross pieces with a blackened chain drape. Do you have a link to your web site. I'm using a wisby type design just making it as a tunic so i can add pieces to hip and front of leg for leg protection
edited for me being a dumb ass***

[Lorccan]

Do you have a link to your web site.

Sure, it's http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php ... cPath=4_24

[branmacairrt]

Lorccan im still waiting to see those pics

[Lorccan]

Lorccan im still waiting to see those pics

Sorry! I was looking for some particular photos I never found. You should get a decent idea from these, though.
The brat is now red, summerweight wool. The helm is the same (I am YEARS overdue for getting my new helm finished, but this one still works, so other things keep taking priority), but I powdercoated it when too much of the bluing was worn away from use. The oval shield I'm using now was originally made as a war shield, but I haven't replaced my round yet, so it does the job. It's wood with sewn rawhide edging, a spring steel boss (held with clenched cut nails, chiseled stainless decorations on the face (held with clenched brass tacks), and a very handy guige strap (held with long, deeply clenched cut nails).
I have gone from a one-piece fighting leine that simulates two layers, to two separate layers. It's actually lighter this way - I was making the old ones really heavy to get them to hold together, but separating the layers lets me go lighter on both. The white bottom leine is a 7-8oz linen, and it takes most of the abuse, especially from the knees down (SCA knee-fighting is responsible for an awful lot of my wear and tear!). It's reinforced with some strategic patches on the inside, and is cut a little fuller in several places (shoulders down to below the elbow, mainly) than my non-fighting ones. My ionars/outer leines are actually now the same pattern for whether I'm fighting or not. I probably have them cut fuller than authentic to allow this, but it's really helpful. I can change the outer layer any time, and my bottom layers can be swapped out for repairs. They're made from 5-7oz linen.


This is one of those action shots that looks more silly than heroic, but it's another angle on the outfit.

This one's from last fall's crown, so the shield is unfinished, but you can see some of the trim and embroidery on this one.

[Lorccan]

Oh, yeah, the other significant change to the kit: mail! I'm borrowing the short, riveted mail shirt pictured until I can afford a long, welded one.
In trying to upgrade my kit, I've been working toward slimming my hidden armor down to the point that I could wear mail over it without bulk or binding, and still have enough protection (the only time that I wore minimal body armor, I got a rib broken). It didn't make sense to have a warrior persona wearing a helm, but no body armor; this feels better. I've been training a lot to get used to the weight and inertia of it, to offset the speed and stamina it cost me. I already feel a big improvement.

[CiaranBlackrune]

Rock on! Mail is where it's at! Mail AND a helm? Shoot, you're some kind of chieftain or noble or something. Or you stole it.

[Lorccan]

Mail AND a helm? Shoot, you're some kind of chieftain or noble or something. Or you stole it.

They say you should dress for the job you want, right?
I'm trying to raise my persona's status a bit, it's true - more options that way!

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Nice! I've gone with a mail shirt over my leine myself. My leine is a bit shorter, and I fight bare shinned.

For body armor under the mail I'm trying evoshield shirt (www.evoshield.com). Works REAL well.

[Bastior]

Nice! I've gone with a mail shirt over my leine myself. My leine is a bit shorter, and I fight bare shinned.

For body armor under the mail I'm trying evoshield shirt (http://www.evoshield.com). Works REAL well.

How's the evoshield for durability? It looks good but their website talks about mould it once wear it for a season ... if it has so short a life span I can see it being, over time, more expensive than equally low profile custom steel ...

B

[branmacairrt]

Thanks for all the great info now if i could just sew that good lol. Also what is the size of your oval shield i just made a 27" round but the oval is what i want to use didn't know a good rule for sizing tho

[Lorccan]

Also what is the size of your oval shield i just made a 27" round but the oval is what i want to use didn't know a good rule for sizing tho

My oval is 36" tall by 22" wide; similar surface area to my 28" rounds, but easier for me to manage in SCA melee. There's no hard & fast guide, but something like half of your height tall by the width of your shoulders wide would work.
That being said, I strongly prefer a round for single combat. It's far, far more likely for your persona than any other shape of shield, although it might be side-strapped instead of center-bossed (there's anecdotal evidence of Irishmen using wicker round shields with spears for raiding, though I can't recall the source). An oval is probably the next most likely shape, but it's still a compromise (one I keep kicking myself for). Rounds and ovals are equally effective, if each is used properly.

If you'd still like a fighting brooch, please PM me your address so I can figure shipping.

[Lorccan]

Just a few kit pics from Pennsic.
Before the Beowulf Tourney, with my banner almost cooperating:

Before the field battles (the big Flavor Flav medallion is the regalia of the 'Shieldbearer' from the Beowulf Tourney):

After the field battles:

I put my brat on after the battles. As nice as the weather was, I never felt hot - and I fought from 10AM to 6PM on Monday!

[branmacairrt]

well heres some pics of me in my first attempt at my fighting garb i know i have to change some things but was my starter helm and cheap fabric i had form last time i was in. so what do you all think????

[Lorccan]

well heres some pics of me in my first attempt at my fighting garb i know i have to change some things but was my starter helm and cheap fabric i had form last time i was in. so what do you all think????

Great start! Over- and under-layers, brat, armor hidden, round shield - all good steps. Suggestions for what could come next, in rough order of priority:
1. Simple, narrow, buckled belt to replace the ring belt. Your current belt seems to be riding high; I'm guessing that has to do with your armor underneath.
2. Tailor your under-tunic sleeves a bit (taper toward the cuffs). It's a quick fix that will make a nice visible difference. Illustrations I've seen seem to have more fitted sleeves on at least the under-tunic.
3. When you make new garb, go with linen, and make the under-tunic lighter than the over-tunic. A color like black was very expensive to produce, so you'd want it on the outside to show it off; an under-tunic would be mostly covered, so you wouldn't spend as much on it.
4. Reducing the bulk of your armor will improve your silhouette, and let you fit your fighting garb better for the 'unarmored' look.
5. A wooden shield makes a great impression. It takes a little work, but the shield needs almost nothing changed from a proper historical reconstruction to meet SCA requirements.
6. Period shoes, or spats. This is more affordable now than ever.
7. Embroidery or woven trim on your garb. Raise your status!
8. A new helm, preferably with mail.
9. A mail hauberk.
Of course, all of that could take a while!

[branmacairrt]

well heres some pics of me in my first attempt at my fighting garb i know i have to change some things but was my starter helm and cheap fabric i had form last time i was in. so what do you all think????

Great start! Over- and under-layers, brat, armor hidden, round shield - all good steps. Suggestions for what could come next, in rough order of priority:
1. Simple, narrow, buckled belt to replace the ring belt. Your current belt seems to be riding high; I'm guessing that has to do with your armor underneath.
2. Tailor your under-tunic sleeves a bit (taper toward the cuffs). It's a quick fix that will make a nice visible difference. Illustrations I've seen seem to have more fitted sleeves on at least the under-tunic.
3. When you make new garb, go with linen, and make the under-tunic lighter than the over-tunic. A color like black was very expensive to produce, so you'd want it on the outside to show it off; an under-tunic would be mostly covered, so you wouldn't spend as much on it.
4. Reducing the bulk of your armor will improve your silhouette, and let you fit your fighting garb better for the 'unarmored' look.
5. A wooden shield makes a great impression. It takes a little work, but the shield needs almost nothing changed from a proper historical reconstruction to meet SCA requirements.
6. Period shoes, or spats. This is more affordable now than ever.
7. Embroidery or woven trim on your garb. Raise your status!
8. A new helm, preferably with mail.
9. A mail hauberk.
Of course, all of that could take a while!

1. I'm trying to fine someone to make a tablet woven belt for me but a buckled belt is a good idea thanks. Also you are right it is the armour but I'm working on that now.
2. When my sewing skills get better i'll try that.
3. My over tunic is linen but all i had and the black was what i had the most of.
4. Addressed above
5. I had a few street signs laying around so was free Also look for more pics form this coming weekend I'm covering and painting now
6. Soon as i have extra cash.
7. Yes I'm looking to take a class on both.
8. On my Yule list
9. Again out of my price range now

[Lorccan]

1. I'm trying to fine someone to make a tablet woven belt for me but a buckled belt is a good idea thanks. Also you are right it is the armour but I'm working on that now.
2. When my sewing skills get better i'll try that.
3. My over tunic is linen but all i had and the black was what i had the most of.
4. Addressed above
5. I had a few street signs laying around so was free Also look for more pics form this coming weekend I'm covering and painting now
6. Soon as i have extra cash.
7. Yes I'm looking to take a class on both.
8. On my Yule list
9. Again out of my price range now

Cool. Like I said, you're off to a great start - I wish my first kit had been as good. It takes some combo of money, time, study, and talent to improve. None of us ever has as much of the above as we want! Please don't take my suggestions as anything but constructive.
A woven belt looks great, but I have tried both, and I prefer the security of a buckled leather belt for fighting.

[branmacairrt]

I am taking your critiques as helping me make a better kit. thanks and I'll be pm you tomorrow prob on the brouch