The Armour Archive

After the nasty Norwegians and Danes started getting involved..

What changes?

Very little of the clothing changes. The brooches and stick pins change. Gael Agus Gall has a good kit guide for this era.
http://homepage.eircom.net/~gael/gaelweb/kit.html


[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/irishuw01.jpg[/img]

[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/irishuw02.jpg[/img]

[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/irishuw03.jpg[/img]

I posted these pictures a while back. 10th century boaire (lowest level property owner). A lot of swords would be the viking type at this point. Still very little evidence for armour. The Irish seemed to fight light. I'm going to eventually add a conical spangen to my kit.

In period, armour among the Irish would have been very, very rare. The only evidence for armour is a couple carvings showing conical helmets and one carving of what might be maille.

Yes, norse armour was available through looting and trade, but there seemed to be a conscious choice not to wear armour. It seems some high up nobles and kings might have adopted norse armour near the end (think Clontarf), but it wouldn't be the norm.

Eamonn, a heavy leather leine is possible, but there isn't any hard evidence for it. The Cattle Raid of Cooley mentions leather armour (though the form isn't clear), but it's a 12th century poem describing 1st century events.

If you have to adapt it to SCA use, you'll have to hide almost all of your armour. Conical helmet (a nasal is fine), hidden body protection, arms, legs. When you blouse your leine up some of the leg armour will show, but that's ok, everyone can already see your out of period gauntlets.

And please, whatever you do, don't wear pants. They have nothing to do with upperclass Irish fashion of this period.

Some more information.

Anyone with an Irish persona should know what class they are. This website explains it well
http://www.geocities.com/billymagfhloin ... rsons.html

[quote]
Early Irish Society was extremely class based, and there were diffrerent levels of person.One's status was often determined on wealth, and could rise or fall accordingly .


Here follows a list of the grades of status in the time of Early Irish (Brehon) Laws.
At the top were the kings:

Rí Ruirech- the highest grade of king, the closest thing to a "High King"
Rí Túath/ Ruirí- The king of several kingdoms
Rí Tuaithe- The King of one kingdom

Below them were the lords:

Aire Forgaill- lord with the highest form of testimony (he could overswear all other lords in court)
Aire Tuíseo- the lord of precedence
Aire ÃÂ

I think its funny that everyone seems to think EVERYONE wore armour in ancient/medieval times.

Armour was as rare and expensive to soldiers then as high tech ballistic and SWAT battle gear is to us today.

Only the head honchos had armour....the rank and file mustered infantryman was lucky if he had a shield and helmet...most only had a shield. Your gear was directly related to where you were on the social ladder. And just because you were wealthy didnt automatically mean you had a full harness...you had to find someone who made armour...Ireland was very iron poor, so most iron items were imported or captured.

Also realize the culture if the Irish played a big part in why there was very little armour. Their mentality and ethos encouraged NOT using armour I believe. I dont pretend to know what was goin on in their melons, but I'm willing to bet they thought it was pretty badass to enter battle with no armour, and seeing the looks on the faces of whoever they were fighting....

The only thing I have to add, is that decoration of Irish stuff at this point begins to take on a lot of Norse characteristics as is seen in Saverios pics...weapons mostly....Norse war gear was quality stuff, and most blades were still coming from the Rhineland and hilted in Scandinavia. I dont know much about domestic weapon design and production, if indeed there even was such a thing.

Dave

Dave makes some good points. The brooch I wear is a Hiberno-Norse style brooch. The Norse were producing Irish style brooches for themselves and Irish customers. Only certain areas would show this influence. The cut of clothing doesn't change much, but they start using fabric traded with the Norse.

I posted this on the other Irish thread.
http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/ir ... ndary.html
It's always a good start for clothing, though it doesn't mention the ionar (not the same as the inar). For actual construction you can try my essay.
http://saverio4444.tripod.com/leine.html

These images are from an 11th century shrine and show clothing almost identical to that of the 8th and 9th century.
[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/maedhoc1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/maedhoc2.jpg[/img]

Dan, When did the Irish start wearing trews? Somewhere in my stuff I have an page from a LH group and have that there were in three types of pants so to speak..One style came to just above the knee were tight against the leg, another came to just below the knee and were tight and one that went to the ankle with a strap under foot....I was under the impression that these were worn at or about the 9th century.

I had seen a drawing from the 14th cn of a Irish lord and he had shorts on that was why I started to look about when they started wearing such...Not that mind NOT wearing any type of pants...I know how really white legs drive the Irish lasses nuts...And if I was any whiter I would glow in the dark...

Eamonn, trews were worn, but by the lower classes. Lower class dress consisted of inar (a front opening jacket) and trews. Those trews could be almost any length. The part about 3 lengths comes from Dunleavy's book (Dress in Ireland).

Dress in Ireland changes in odd ways after the Normans arrive. There is little pictorial evidence in the 12th and 13th centuries, so you can't follow a shift. And of course, the Norse didn't go away, they were slowly absorbed into Irish society and probably influenced Irish clothing too. The common mistake is to assume the 16th century leine was a direct descendant of the 10th century garment. A leine in the 4th century wasn't the same as a leine in the 9th century or the 16th century.

Eamonn MacCampbell wrote:

Saverio wrote:Eamonn, trews were worn, but by the lower classes. Lower class dress consisted of inar (a front opening jacket) and trews. Those trews could be almost any length. The part about 3 lengths comes from Dunleavy's book (Dress in Ireland).

So these would be worn then under the leine? One of shorter length I'm assuming, mid thigh, mabbe knee length.

We don't know. In instances were men have their leinte hiked up to knee length nothing shows. So it's possible they wore short trews like boxer shorts, but there is no way of knowing.

[quote="Aedhan"]What were the fashions for these two classes:
the lord of presedence
&
Aire ÃÂ

The inar is closed with a bronze pin (soon to be replaced with a bone pin) and a belt. The spear and shield can be documented, but the axe is a guess on my part, something to show Viking influence. I think this portrayal would be a Fuidir, a semi-freeman in service of a lord.

This is not the style of dress for a noble

[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/irishsoldier1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/irishsoldier2.jpg[/img]

Here's an estimate for this kit
Inar - $8
Trews - $12
Belt - $3
Pin - $5
Shoes - $10
Spear - $45
Shield - $35
Axe - $20

10th century Irish, pic is clicky to make large

Saverio--I don't have any of my brehon law books at school with me, but it's my understanding that a Boaire family owns 2 cumhal of land, enough land to raise 14 cattle (which would in most cases be given in clientage by a higher lord), and upon it a ringfort of dimensions that I can't recall at the moment. My only guess is that perhaps this and what you posted above represent the laws in different times or places? The laws are another area where the change over time is really badly documented.

On a fairly unrelated note, is there any evidence for the color of clothing worn for various garments throughout the centuries? I assume dyestuffs would be pretty universal (not matching, but similar) and being a buyer of JoAnn and Hancock fabrics, it's nice to know that the neon green linen is out.

Maghnus Ó Sionnaigh wrote:nice to know that the neon green linen is out.

They make that?

Anyway, check out The Vikings' color guide:

http://www.vikingsonline.org.uk/resourc ... nnex2.html

It's not complete (doesn't deal with green at all, and barely any about blue), but it's a start.

More information on colors for Maghnus:

There's a fair bit of info on colors. In terms of which colors have been shown in use, there is direct evidence for, off the top of my head, woad, weld, madder, green lichen, and Tyrian purple, which was actually being produced by the 7th century in what is now Mayo. I'm not sure about kermes, but I think it's been found? So, from that, you have a wide range of red, blue, yellow, green and purple . . . but it seems that white was the preferred color for the leine in many cases, with other clothing being the primary source of color in your outfit. The leine could be embroidered, though, sometimes even with metal fibers for really rich people. It must be noted, though, that as the class structure became more and more stratified and casted, the age and colors of an individual's clothes became more and more restricted.

The leine and brat were, according to all evidence, of a single color, not checked, plaid or striped. It would also probably not be uncommon to wear a slightly shorter woolen overtunic called a ionar (distinct from an inar) over the leine, basically a kyrtle (and the leine in the Viking period was probably constructed much like the kyrtle, with rectangular body panels and triangular gores to widen the skirt.). This makes a lot of sense . . . if any of you have ever lived in Ireland, you'll back me up on the fact that just a linen leine and a single cloak would NOT be sufficient clothing for the climate most of the year. There also appears to be evidence on at least one high cross of what might be nobles wearing something like an inar or a short Viking kaftan (a waistlength jacket, whatever you call it) over the leine. The leine could also have a hood.

The length of the leine seems to be important as well. Depictions of really important people (Jesus, for example) show them wearing a leine to their ankles, while depictions of lower status people or people who are being active wear shorter (knee or thigh-length leine) versions, but if you're wearing a ionar, the leine should always be visible beneath it, and probably decorated around the hem.

One important thing to note is shoes . . . if you're high class, or at least middle class, you wear them! End of story. Going barefoot was a very poor, lowclass thing to do.

As far as pants go . . . we'll, there's not really much to go on, but my guess is that rich people did wear wool trews under their leine, especially in cold or wet weather. As the cultural fusion with the Norse became more widespread, more people probably adopted a shorter tunic and pants style of dress, including wealthier individuals, and at least by the end of the 12th century, shortly after the Anglo-Norman invasion, hose or trews became a common part of dress even for Gaelic nobles.

I'm working on a Hiberno-Norse tradesman living in Dublin in the year 1000AD. While I havnt found many available reproductions coming from finds in or near Dublin (or Ireland), I've guessed that tunic cuts and hardware would be similar or traveled in such a metropolitian area.

Dress in Ireland changes in odd ways after the Normans arrive. There is little pictorial evidence in the 12th and 13th centuries, so you can't follow a shift. And of course, the Norse didn't go away, they were slowly absorbed into Irish society and probably influenced Irish clothing too. The common mistake is to assume the 16th century leine was a direct descendant of the 10th century garment. A leine in the 4th century wasn't the same as a leine in the 9th century or the 16th century.

I have found this statement to be true but for a people who document their invasion of England quite well I find it very unusual that nothing is documented about the invasion of Ireland. This is a time period that I am interested in and get almost nowhere with research on the subject specifically 1215 to 1220. When I ask someone about Irish clothing in this period I usually get the response, it was much like the continent but a little dated. My next questions is what makes a Irish Tunic different than a Norman Tunic, the response is ???? ahh.. embellishment.

There's an awful lot of good stuff in this thread, I just wanted to contribute two things.

1 - I've found Cattle Lords and Clansmen: The Social Structure of Early Ireland by Nerys T. Patterson to be a very useful book for my effort to pull off 950-ish Irish. Not a good guide for material culture in all respects, but excellent social info.

Saverio wrote:When you blouse your leine up some of the leg armour will show, but that's ok, everyone can already see your out of period gauntlets.

2 - I've been fighting in the SCA in a leine that ends just above my ankles for 6 years with no problems. It completely conceals my leg armour unless I jump up or fall down! If anything gets in the way, it's likely to be the brat, but I've worked that out pretty well, too.

My recent fighting leine are actually generously cut ionar with false cuffs, collars, and skirts added in to give the impression that I am wearing both layers (see below). Still very much a work in progress...

What the heck, I'll add my little contribution.


http://coblaith.net/EarlyGaelicDress/default.html

It's basic stuff, just an introduction. Complimented with the indepth knowledge of folks like Kass, Saverio and the gang over at the livinghistory.ie forum, it might be useful.

I'm personally proud of my brat-folding hypothesis.

Good stuff, Finnacan!

I am a bit confused, though, by one aspect of you brat-folding idea - how is it worn? Do you have a photo or sketch that could help us picture how the brat, folded as you describe, would actually be pinned on a person?

For my part, I fold my brats once, lengthwise, and wrap them around my shoulders, since I am not of such high station that I need to have much more. I fold them a bit asymmetrically, so they will hang longer and the little hem embroidery of both layers will show. The outer layer can easily be flipped forward for use as a hood. See photo above (fighting brat, but my dressy ones are much the same, except nicer fabric & details) and sketch below ('x'es mark the spots the brooch pins through when worn on the right shoulder).

Basically the way I do it (just my way, understand) is once I've folded in the edges, I bring the corners in and push the pin through - ya need a decent size brooch for this, and I only do five folds myself... well, what I call five as per the guide.

The folds are pined together at my shoulder, but they open around me, like pleats.

I fold one edge, push the pin through the folds, drape the brat around me, fold the other edge and join them. An extra pair of hands helps.

I did more work on my low class soldier kit

http://picasaweb.google.com/conall.macf ... _a3YgtO-eg#



Finnacan, the more I read your essay the more I agree with it. I think you've found a way to reconcile every source into a fairly complete picture of Gaelic dress.

Can I vote in favor of letting your hair get a little bit longer . . . and then shaving the proper three fingers' width above your ears?

In other words, very well done!

Hey, I'm lucky I have enough hair for this style! My hairline must be French because it's retreating like crazy .

My helmet is on loan right now, or I'd have a spangen on my head too.

Saverio wrote: Finnacan, the more I read your essay the more I agree with it. I think you've found a way to reconcile every source into a fairly complete picture of Gaelic dress.

It is four months late, but I just had say wow.

Thank you.

A compliment like that from you is humbling, Saverio. I am most honored.

Well, you wouldn't have worked so hard on figuring it out if I hadn't been such a stubborn pain in the rear about garments like the inar . Glad you proved me wrong .

So I've a curiosity on the hard kit for Hiberno-Norse around the 8th-9th century.
How likely is it for the equipment of the Varangian Guard to make it to the area around Ireland?
Mainly, I am interested in the splinted vambraces and greaves for my SCA combat. As to how my persona came about this armour-I'm thinking from picking it up off of the occasional unfortunate raider/warrior.

Caelan mac Mael Duin wrote:So I've a curiosity on the hard kit for Hiberno-Norse around the 8th-9th century.
How likely is it for the equipment of the Varangian Guard to make it to the area around Ireland?
Mainly, I am interested in the splinted vambraces and greaves for my SCA combat. As to how my persona came about this armour-I'm thinking from picking it up off of the occasional unfortunate raider/warrior.

If you want to use splinted vambraces and greaves, do so. But the chance of their being historically accurate for Ireland are vanishingly small.

Firstly, there's no written evidence of any Varangian Guards making it to Ireland. It's possible, as there are records of ex-Varangians coming home to Scandinavia (notably Harald Hardrada and his followers, plus Bolli Bollasson and his companions), and perhaps they could then have gone on to Ireland. But it's stretching the argument a fair bit to then say that an Irishman (of a group who generally didn't wear armour, according to the above discussion) took vambraces and greaves from a dead ex-Varangian.

Then we have to add in the fact that there's actually no evidence that Varangians wore splinted greaves or vambraces. Perhaps one got them from the Imperial arsenal in Byzantium and was allowed to take them home with him when he left the service? Getting rather more unlikely as we go.

And then the evidence for Byzantine use of splinted greaves/vambraces is as follows:

* One reference in the late-6th century Strategikon of Emperor Maurice to wooden greaves (no mention of the form these took, but as far as I can see, splints are about the only way it was possible).

* One representation of an armoured horseman on a jug variously described as Bulgarian/Hungarian/whatever (but not Byzantine), with splinted greaves and vambraces.

*One picture (out of hundreds and hundreds) in the illustrated Byzantine Skylitzes Chronicle in Madrid shows a warrior with splinted greaves and vambraces. But reading the caption he turns out to be an Abasgian - a foreigner, not a Byzantine.

NO other mentions in Byzantine sources, and no other representations in Byzantine art.


All this makes the idea of Varangians using splinted greaves and vambraces gotten from the Byzantines, taking them back to Scandinavia and then to Ireland and an Irishman picking up and using them - basically ludicrous.

That doesn't mean you can't use them in SCA combat. But the above rationalisation for using them really isn't workable.

For personal reasons, I've also gone with an Irish persona, perhaps as an Irish fighter in the Brian Boru campaigns. Some of you might recognise my signature name as akin to some of the Irish Saints.

@ Saverio:
I wish some of your links still worked, and I've read and reread the Irish Recreationist's group site that you provided.

Saverio wrote:Very little of the clothing changes. The brooches and stick pins change. Gael Agus Gall has a good kit guide for this era.
http://homepage.eircom.net/~gael/gaelweb/kit.html

A lot of swords would be the viking type at this point. Still very little evidence for armour. The Irish seemed to fight light. I'm going to eventually add a conical spangen to my kit.

If you go far down their list for the essentials of a kit, you get to the arms & armor, and there's an item listed that has boggled me:

WEAPONS
Where possible, modern Irish spelling applies. This list is compiled from an article in The Irish Sword on "Native Irish Arms and Armour".
Knife : Scian
Mailcoat : Luireach
Helmet : Clogas or Cathbarr.
Spear : Sleagh, but the words, Ga, or Gaoi could also be used.
Shield : Scath
Darts : Birin
Sword : Claiomh, usually traded or taken from Vikings. (Very expensive).
Multiple layers of waxed linen shirts are referred to as a form of armour also leather coats
Battle Dress : Erred
Norse Lance : Manais Lochlannach
Arrow : Saighead
Bow : Boagha
Quiver : Bolgan Saighead
Axe : Tua
Sling : Boagha Cloch

Sounds like it could pass as an early rain coat, but I recal that modern techniques for making cuirbolli uses paraffin wax, correct? Is this something similar?

Ciarán

They based it on the Tain. Cucchulain wore some crazy armour. We don't know what it's based on. Is it a 1st century detail or a 12th century detail? I trust very little from the Tain. He was a superhero. He lept thirty feet at a time, got all big and scary like the Hulk.

IIRC, the armor from Clontarf would have pretty much been what the Norse were wearing at the time (mail).

.

Diglach mac Cein wrote:IIRC, the armor from Clontarf would have pretty much been what the Norse were wearing at the time (mail).

.

Well, let's say the Irish were trying to make up for lost time. The end of the first millenium there's also historical references to a growing population of Hiberno-Norse who were, I think, involved in both sides of the fighting. I am currently reading a copy of The Historical Atlas of The Celtic World by Dr. Ian Barnes. Its a bit convoluted, but I like it so far. Unfortunately, it doesn't give me any clues about the question I had either. The more I think about the waxed linen, the more I think its cuirboilli.

I currently cannot afford a nice hauberk of chain, so I might make my goal to have a functional kit like Lorccan's, covering my gear with a leine & brat.

If anyone wants photos taken let me know. I live in co Dublin and I can travel anywhere easily.