The Armour Archive

I'm looking for appropriate headwear for men circa 1370.

Picture and or vendors would be nice.

Steve

What sorts of headwear are you interested in? (What sort of impression are you trying to do?)

There's hoods, of course. A few different (early) varieties of "bag hats," like the ones at http://www.maisonstclaire.org/resources ... _hats.html

(There's also plenty of examples of men not wearing hats, but that have their hair neatly dressed in whatever style is fashionable -- like http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?image=073379 for example. Hats are not always an absolute requirement.)

Go to http://mandragore.bnf.fr/jsp/rechercheExperte.jsp and enter one of the following into the line marked "Cote":
Français 12399
Nouvelle acquisition française 5243
Then click "Chercher," then click "Images."

What sorts of headwear are you interested in? (What sort of impression are you trying to do?)

Something appropriate to your typical SCA nobleman circa 1370.

Are these all appropriate to 1370?:
http://www.maisonstclaire.org/resources ... _hats.html

Looks like I could wear a Robin Hood hat!


The "bag hats" look like kepi hats.


Steve

Oh look! Revival has a pretty good rendition of the "bag hat":

http://www.revivalclothing.com/index.as ... ProdID=250

According to that page it was most popular in the third quarter of the 15th century; about a hundred years after your portrayal.

-Derian.

According to that page...

Which page? A few are under discussion.

Steve

Steve -SoFC- wrote:

What sorts of headwear are you interested in? (What sort of impression are you trying to do?)

Something appropriate to your typical SCA nobleman circa 1370.

Are these all appropriate to 1370?:
http://www.maisonstclaire.org/resources ... _hats.html

Looks like I could wear a Robin Hood hat!


The "bag hats" look like kepi hats.


Steve

There's tons of pics of Murdock wearing the robin hood type hat and I have to say they are quite dashing.

Steve -SoFC- wrote:

According to that page...

Which page? A few are under discussion.

The one you linked to in the post immediately prior to mine; the revival bag hat.

-Derian.

Derian le Breton wrote:The one you linked to in the post immediately prior to mine; the revival bag hat.

I have a hard time with a lot of Revival's descriptions, in terms of what's authentic to what, etc.; they also seem to take some liberties with the redrawings to help justify the designs that they sell.

It's always good to educate your eyeballs first, before you go shopping.

That being said, their Mens Wool Brimmed Cap resembles some of the hats in the afore-referenced Français 12399 (Book of Modus and Ratio, 1379).

Yeah, I made no claims to the authenticity of their statement, only that they made it.

-Derian.

So, Karen, do you think the bag hat works for 1370? I like it.

Steve

Steve -SoFC- wrote:

What sorts of headwear are you interested in? (What sort of impression are you trying to do?)

Something appropriate to your typical SCA nobleman circa 1370.

Are these all appropriate to 1370?:
http://www.maisonstclaire.org/resources ... _hats.html

Looks like I could wear a Robin Hood hat!


The "bag hats" look like kepi hats.


Steve

IIRC, I'd put these two images at closer to 1400-1410 (give or take a few years) instead of 1370. That doesn't mean that you can't wear these particular styles for that year, but you should look for support in other images for it.

Well the wool brimmed hat is kinda cool, too.

Steve

Steve -SoFC- wrote:So, Karen, do you think the bag hat works for 1370? I like it.

Steve

They are depicted on Mechelen (Belgium) Town Hall sculptures from 1375-1376:

http://deventerburgerscap.blogspot.com/ ... /muts.html

That works for me, portraying a 1370 guy.

Steve- these are slightly later than what you're looking for, probably having been created between 1404 and 1419, but they depict a high class bag hat:
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... s-hat.html
You'll see similar hats in Gaston Phoebus' book of the Hunt, which was also illuminated in the very early 15th century.

Hey Gaston do you think they stuff those bag hats to make them sit up nice and high?

Steve

"A man walks down the street in a hat like that, you know he's not afraid of anything."

A baghat has immense psychological value. For some reason, if a common dude (: non-noble) discovers that a noble guy has his baghat with him, he will automatically assume that he is also in possession of a toothbrush, washcloth, soap, tin of biscuits, flask, map, ball of string, moth balls, proper wardrobe, suit of armour etc., etc. Furthermore, the common dude will then happily lend the noble guy any of these or a dozen other items that the noble guy might accidentally have "lost". What the common dude will think is that any man who can hitch the length and breadth of the tourneyfield, rough it, slum it, struggle against terrible odds, win through, and still knows where his baghat is, is clearly a man to be reckoned with.

Bertus Brokamp wrote:A baghat has immense psychological value. For some reason, if a common dude (: non-noble) discovers that a noble guy has his baghat with him, he will automatically assume that he is also in possession of a toothbrush, washcloth, soap, tin of biscuits, flask, map, ball of string, moth balls, proper wardrobe, suit of armour etc., etc. Furthermore, the common dude will then happily lend the noble guy any of these or a dozen other items that the noble guy might accidentally have "lost". What the common dude will think is that any man who can hitch the length and breadth of the tourneyfield, rough it, slum it, struggle against terrible odds, win through, and still knows where his baghat is, is clearly a man to be reckoned with.

I'm so going to have to make a baghat now. With it I shall never panic.

I dig the baghat.

Thanks for the link, Bertus!

Steve

I have been wearing the rolled up liripipe, i.e. chaperone. I have never really been satisfied with exact dates for its use? Would this be an appropriate piece of head gear for circa 1370? I am pitching at around 1380 or so now with soft kit and joust harness. Please note highly cheesy photo!

Andrew McKinnon wrote:I have been wearing the rolled up liripipe, i.e. chaperone. I have never really been satisfied with exact dates for its use? Would this be an appropriate piece of head gear for circa 1370?

It appears in the c. 1350 images I've got linked from http://larsdatter.com/hoods.htm (Voeux du paon). (I omit a lot of "chaperones" from that page, unless it's pretty clear that it's a hood worn in that style, rather than a headdress that just emulates the style. But the Voeux du paon guys do seem to be wearing hoods.)

Cut of hood and style of roll effect the propriety of the chaperone rolled out of the hood. You will notice the length of drape of the hoods mantle in the wearly 13th century images Karen posted, along with the lack of a liliripe.

That rolled hood would be more appropriate for 1390-1420, from the way you are wearing it, to the cut dags of the hoods mantle, and the length of the liliripe.

Look to the hours of the duc de Berry by the Limbourg brothers - your hood/chaprone looks like it was borrowed from the pages.

I think those pictures are bad-ass, Andrew!

Steve

Try rolling the face and donning the hat with the cockscomb hanging down the back, rather than the side. Wrap the liripipe around the head, catching the comb and holding it down against the back of the head. Tuck the loose end f the liripipe/tail in so it doesn't escape.

This arrangement appears frequently in period illos, but not on reenactors. I'll tryto find time to dig out a period example and demo the technique later today.

Gwen

Cheers Gwen. Will give that a go! Also thanks for the extra info Karen & Bob. Will have a look at the references. Hope it was a helpful hijack Steve!

It's certainly possible that some of the bag hats were stuffed, but if you use a fairly heavy wool they seem to hold their shape without too much work. I got mine from Revival, and did some tailoring on it. The one they sell is too long for what I wanted to depict, but it's a pretty versatile base.

I'm curious- I see an evolution in the way hoods and hats were worn in the 14th C.

The Manessa Codex shows hoods being worn as a hat, with the mantle (the part over the shoulders) in the back and the point hanging over the edge in the front:




As the century progresses, the tail and mantle get longer, but the hood is still worn as a hat the same way- the mantle falls in the back and the tail is in front, except now the tail is so long it gets wrapped around the head and traps the mantle:



And the forward falling is such a part of the style that sometimes even the mantle is thrown forward:


Nearing the end of the century, the bag hat appears, but the baggy part is flopped forward, like the point was:



Early in the 15th C. the hood has evolved into the chaperone, but it seems to have been sometimes worn with the mantle in the back and a band or the tail wrapped over the top, as the hood had been 50 years earlier:



That last bit aside, it looks to me as though all through the 14th century the fashionable way to wear the headgear was to flop a bit of it -forward- yet modern reenactors are flopping them to the side, like a santa hat. Why is that? Even if the shape's the same, wearing it flopped to the side makes it a different 'look'.

Gwen

Black Swan Designs wrote:That last bit aside, it looks to me as though all through the 14th century the fashionable way to wear the headgear was to flop a bit of it -forward- yet modern reenactors are flopping them to the side, like a santa hat. Why is that? Even if the shape's the same, wearing it flopped to the side makes it a different 'look'.

It may be that the depth of the mantling on the hood (that is, the bit that would be worn over the neck and chest, were it to be worn in the conventional manner) is longer than the hoods depicted as being worn to the front? We 21st century people are odd in our desire to be able to not have our eyes covered by our fashion statements.

Plus, people may be conflating slightly later styles, when we do see plenty of examples with the side-flop:
http://www.wga.hu/html/e/eyck_van/jan/0 ... hymot.html
http://www.wga.hu/html/e/eyck_van/jan/0 ... oldsm.html
etc.

I was generalizing, and in doing so excluding all but the middle of the bell curve sample from the group I was referring to. Of course there will -always- be examples of expressions of individuals style, especially when garments and accessories are not standardized by mass production methods .Class, region and person choice will always inform the way an individual chooses to wear his or her clothing and accessories.

Even assuming that the mantling is longer, why not try to roll the face edge a bit deeper to compensate, or to push the mantling back a bit?

The bag hat is easier- simply keep rolling until it's short enough, then flop it forward!

I guess this is a case of folks following the leader- a supplier shows something worn a certain way, or sees a friend or groupmate wearing it a particular way, and they simply follow along. It's interesting because I think this is where 'style' comes from- people want to fit in, so they adopt the dress of the group they want to fit in with. I see it from the 14 year old alternative kids in their skinny jeans, studded belts, crazy hair cuts and heavy eye makeup all the way up to the bleach blond, suntanned and Coach sandaled rich wives.

Interesting!

Gwen

Here's a Link to some interesting interpretations of various styles.

All right, all right, http://larsdatter.com/chaperons.htm is in development now ...

When I wear my chaperone with my houpaland, I wear it with the top (mantle) flopped to the side and the tail up under my chin and tucked back up and rolled into the brim. I'd post a picture, but the only ones I can find are either so small or dark it's hard to make out what I'm talking about.

On the topic of the hood worn on top of the head instead of pulled down over head and neck I found a usefull quote in a dictionary of medieval low-german:

Hyr synt noch borger genoich to Hervorde, de ok noch kogeln dregen, unde wo wal se der nicht am halse trecken, sunder upt hovet setten, so gyfft id doch dat macksel na, dat men se ock am halse trecken kan, unde geschut ok vaken, sunderlinx van rutern, kopluden, baden, kremeren, karendrywers, schepers unde scheplude .. der se vor kulde, regen, hagel unde sne nuttich bruken.

My rough translation:
'Here are still civilians enough at Herford, who also still wear hoods, and where although they do not pull them over their necks, but put them on the head, it can be said that much for the creation, that one can pull it also over the neck, and this occurs often as well, especially by riders, merchants, messengers, pedlars, cartdrivers, skippers and shipmen ... who for cold, rain, hail and snow usefully use it.'

stated source: Falcks Staatsbürgerliches Magazin, 8, p. 716

Too bad it does not give a year for the quote and too bad Falcks S. M. isn't available in any library near me so I can not check it easily.

Started developing http://larsdatter.com/bag-hats.htm (and http://larsdatter.com/acorn-hats too, but they seem to be more of a 15th century thing so far).

Bertus, something about that description made me think of the illustrations in the Wolfegg Housebook.