15th C. Thugz! Show us your kit!

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:38 pm

Jeffrey Hedgecock wrote:Close Sallets.......

while they can be an option for jousting, remember sallets are a field helmet...not for jousting. For jousting, these helmets have to be built in a very specific way and special attention needs to be paid to all three catches-- the bevor lock, the bevor lame and the visor. If they don't work well and lock positively, the helmet can be quite difficult to use and bordering on unsafe.

My teammate Steve Mallett purchased the very helmet from Cory shown above. You can see him in the background of the photo of Toby and Arne. He's had quite a bit of trouble with the helmet's latches, which have needed rework and adjustment. I think some of this is that his liner isn't done very well (he got that made independently) and since it wasn't made for him it doesn't fit too well. He also rides in a way that puts some extra upward stress on the bevor. That said, the helmet was available at the time Steve needed one.

I wasn't aware that Cory was still taking armour orders. Perhaps this has changed.

In any case, there are several helmets that are better suited and more appropriate for jousting than sallets of any type. If you really want to have a sallet, it would probably be best to get a different helmet for jousting.

As a side note, Arne got a minor concussion and whiplash from that strike. I was a little worried about him, but he seemed ok the next day when he took Gwen and me to Manchester airport. He's a tough cookie.

I'm curious - were sallets used for the joust historically? I'd assume they would be used in an initial cavalry charge in combat (and certainly they were on foot) and perhaps mounted melees, while something more specific to the joust would have been used for jousting (like a great bascinet, frog mouth or armet).

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:46 pm

@zachos- Maybe that 'I was there' 'sounded' more confrontational than intended.

Nice photos! We did some like that in the old Red Company days. What date are you shooting for exactly?

Gwen

Chris G. · Post by **Chris G.** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:42 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:it's a pleated coat over a mahoitred doublet. Yes, I made his outfit. Here are other pleated coats/outfits I've made-

Here's a tutorial if you want to take a stab at making your own (photo is a link)-

Gwen

Gwen,

Do you have any recommendations for fabrics that you are willing to share for making a similar coat?

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:26 pm

d-farrell2 wrote:I'm curious - were sallets used for the joust historically?

Well no, not for the joust of peace, anyway.

They were used on the battlefield and in judicial duels, both being situations where armour suited to war was used.

I'd assume they would be used in an initial cavalry charge in combat (and certainly they were on foot) and perhaps mounted melees, while something more specific to the joust would have been used for jousting (like a great bascinet, frog mouth or armet).

You have it basically right. It's a complex subject, but that's the gist.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:26 am

Chris, not sure what what you mean as far as recommending fabrics, so I'll take a stab at what I think you might mean.

AFAIK the uber-authentic groups want plain coloured wool, with various restrictions on colour choices. Some *might* let you go with a patterned fabric, all the way from sorta OK all the way up to the hand woven/dyed stuff from Belgium at $300+/pm. That would vary by group, as would any restrictions on everything being hand stitched with real fur, etc.

I imagine for the SCA, just about any fabric would do.

If that's not the answer you were looking for, keep asking until I understand what you want. I can be rather thick sometimes.

Gwen

zachos · Post by **zachos** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:56 am

Our company has the date attached of 1470-1475, although a lot of our equipment isn't quite right.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:35 am

More pics of 15th C. kit!
Here are some more photo's I took:

These two were taken right after another.

These were taken at Bosworth 2008, some great guys from the group I'm in
Armour by Plessis and St. George Armoury
Again: Copyright 2008-2009 Ben van Koert

Rod Walker · Post by **Rod Walker** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:12 am

Ooo Sallets for jousting.

Still got a large lump of scar tissue in my mouth from taking a lance into the face.

Chris G. · Post by **Chris G.** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:18 am

Sorry Gwen, I realize my question was vague.

I'm specifically looking for appropriate brocades (or whatever the correct term should be) for making a similar pleated coat. Most of the ones I find are for furniture and have a plastic backing.

Thanks.

~Chris

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:21 am

Chris G. wrote:Sorry Gwen, I realize my question was vague.

I'm specifically looking for appropriate brocades (or whatever the correct term should be) for making a similar pleated coat. Most of the ones I find are for furniture and have a plastic backing.

Thanks.

~Chris

I think that G Street, or even Jo ann or Hancock have a red chenille and gold fabric very much like what Gwen used. I've used it on a 16th c. doublet - so pretty!

Fire Stryker · Post by **Fire Stryker** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:44 am

Chris G. wrote:
I'm specifically looking for appropriate brocades (or whatever the correct term should be) for making a similar pleated coat. Most of the ones I find are for furniture and have a plastic backing.

Do a search on Ecclesiastical fabrics. Many of the patterns used are appropriate and some are based on 15th or 16th century patterns.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:53 am

There you go- advice from the uber-historical groups.

Personally (and I'm only speaking for myself here) I generally don't like the ecclesiastical fabrics because they *look* like ecclesiastical fabrics to me. Most (not all) of the ones I've seen are based on earlier (12-13thC.) designs, and that just jumps out at me. Also, many are acetate blends, and acetate is just nasty stuff.

I buy my fabrics in LA, so I don't know what is out there generally. Most of mine are Italian imports.

A quick Google search turned up 'renaissancefabric' on Ebay with some not-so-bad patterns which are unfortunately in acetate blends.

M. Perkin and Son, Ltd. has these, which are just gorgeous, but I have a feeling they're quite pricey.

Based on a 15th C. design, and quite good.

Also this, which is also based on a 15th C. design:

This is 16th C., but still pretty good:

But you're right, you don't want to go with something with a plastic backing- that's just icky.

Solid fabrics look great and I'm quite sure would be accepted by more of the uber-historical groups. I have a specific reason for using patterned fabrics, and most of my customers want patterned fabrics, which is why I have so many images of coats in patterned fabrics. Ben has a gorgeous green wool coat I made for him, and I recently did a black velvet with gold braid lined in eggplant silk which was just *amazing*. Dom has a blue wool lined in faux fur which looks fantastic-

Gwen

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:04 am

Chris G. wrote:Sorry Gwen, I realize my question was vague.

I'm specifically looking for appropriate brocades (or whatever the correct term should be) for making a similar pleated coat. Most of the ones I find are for furniture and have a plastic backing.

Thanks.

~Chris

A brocade, accordinmg to the chapter on textiles in "Spendour of Burgundy" catalog on the Charles the Bold exhibit, is a cloth with woven gold (and presumably silver thread), into a pattern, the contrasting colour and gold seen in the cheniles and stuff we almost all use (All of my riding gowns wool to brocade inclusive, were made by Gwen), and give a good visual impression of that sort of fabric outside of touching distance. As far as the most of us are concerned, it is perfectly adequate for the job.

A damask would be a silk with a pattern woven into it, without any metalic thread, so I am led to believe (the more textile savvy will correct me if I am wrong). It is really more appropriate for most use, beiong more likely worn by a knight or gentleman as their best, while the actual brocades, and what we think of as 'cloth of gold', which the largest majority gold thread, with silks making up a fraction of the overall picking out the pattern in the cloth, would be the purview of the actual nobility, or their highest ranking servants.

Some day, I am going to get a closer damask to be made up into a riding gown, but it isn't that high on my list of priorities, because, IMO, and in the opinion of the venue I work in, the appearance given by the modern textiles mimicing medieval brocade is prefectly acceptable to give a visual impression to the audience.

I highly recommend Gwens gowns, I have three of the short gowns, one in black wool, with a linen lining, and two in fancier cloth, lined in silk, which just look stunning in photos, and in person.

zachos · Post by **zachos** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:04 am

While there are lots of images that show men and women in brocades, I think there's a lot to be said for non brocade fabrics, as many images show block colours for even very expensive gowns. You could also give shot fabrics a go, as they appear in a couple illuminations, and can look really swish.

An example of Green shot with gold on a friend of mine:

Fire Stryker · Post by **Fire Stryker** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:04 pm

Most of the "ecclesiastical" fabrics run from about 54$/yard and up. Watts of Westminster and M Perkins are among the popular fabric makers. You have to look at the blends. Most are a acetate mix, though occasionally you'll find 100% silk.

Historic Room (Historiska Rum) has some selections, contact them to be sure. Wool and linens.

Drogo the Clueless · Post by **Drogo the Clueless** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:41 pm

Fire Stryker I love the fabrics at the Historic Room website that you posted, but am I missing something with the proce?? 1680 Swedish Krona for 1 meter?? That's over 200 dollars a yard.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:54 pm

I've been drooling over this site for a few years now:
http://www.almerlin.de/stoffe/mittelalt ... toffe.html
I wish I could afford sending some to Gwen and back to have a new doublet made. With all the taxes it's just too much, unfortunately. There are some real beauties on there.

By the way, Gwen is right about the green wool for the gown she made me, it's really superb, it's really fine and seems to change in brightness in different light, which brings out the pleats very lovely.

Tibbie Croser · Post by **Tibbie Croser** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:59 pm

What are opinions on cotton damask as a non-acetate substitute for silk damask? Obviously it's inferior to silk, but would it breathe better than synthetic damask (provided it's not treated with stain repellent or something)?

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:18 pm

Kaos wrote:I've been drooling over this site for a few years now:
http://www.almerlin.de/stoffe/mittelalt ... toffe.html

Kaos, I think you and I were separated at birth; we have very similar taste in garb and in kits. I really need to make it over the pond to one of your events soon. Might actually be in the cards for 2010.

Gwen we're going to need to talk soon. I need some fancy pieces added to my garb and I've always wanted to invest in some of your work.

This is a hell of an inspirational thread, thanks to everyone for continuing to add to it. It's just the incentive I've needed as of late to motive me towards working on my kit.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:20 pm

Cotton damask has a flat finish which I don't like, and in my experience gets dirty really easily. I prefer something with rayon in it, as it generally has a better 'look', and spot cleans better. At least that's been my experience. You also want something with a bit of weight in it to hold the pleats.

Hey, have we derailed this thread?

Should we move this discussion? I'm happy to help in any way I can, but just realized we've probably gotten off track from TomBurr's original intent. Sorry!

Gwen

Fire Stryker · Post by **Fire Stryker** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:34 pm

Drogo the Clueless wrote:Fire Stryker I love the fabrics at the Historic Room website that you posted, but am I missing something with the proce?? 1680 Swedish Krona for 1 meter?? That's over 200 dollars a yard.

Drogo, you are correct. It's handwoven I think. So you're looking at $170 US and up.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:37 pm

I really need to invest in a Yorkist livery coat.
I have a tabbard, but I would really like a coat.

I need to invest in some fancier "court" wear too at some point.

Damn why must my will for the dollar outflow be more than the in?

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:00 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:There you go- advice from the uber-historical groups.

My own preference for wool, or rather, keeping it to fabric that I can afford for wool or silk, is strictly my own. I fully recognize that everybody has different goals!

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:13 pm

Because what fabric was called in the 15th C. isn't always what it is called or sold as today, here is the industry standard for fabrics so you know the difference and can ask for what you want-

Brocade- fabric woven with an elaborate design, especially one having a raised overall pattern, non-reversible

The bite here is that a true, traditional 'brocade' has the design picked out in separate weft floats, so it isn't reversible. Many of these new fabrics that are being called brocade are reversible, but they're still being sold as brocades. Ah, gotta love our ever-evolving language!

Damask- a reversible fabric woven with patterns.

Damask- usually tone on tone as above, but also available in 2 colours

Brocatelle- a brocade in which the design is woven in high relief

Technically, this one has a raised pattern and could be classed as a brocatelle. However, I bought it as damask, because it is still reversible

Hope that helps!

Gwen

Chris G. · Post by **Chris G.** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:21 pm

Thanks for the information.

I'm going to start off with some solid wools I have stashed away. I have some velvets I'd like to use, but I don't trust my skills enough yet to get the nap to lay right. It will be a little while before I try to tackle something with a pattern on the fabric.

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:57 pm

Chris - if you don't mind cotton/poly blends, you can often find nice 'damasks' in the form of tablecloths at second hand stores. I got enough to make a giornea (a sort of sideless surcoat) and the cotehardie I posted earlier. It isn't perfect, but it has a nice look to it IMO. And it was about 10 bucks for about 3 yds by 60". In fact, I think the gold one that Gwen posted is the fabric the tablecloth was made from.

the trouble is knowing what kind of pattern is close enough to pass for a historical pattern. For that, google is your friend (as are some of the few companies still producing patterns that were produced a few hundred years ago... there are some in Italy, but I've forgotten their names)

Chris G. · Post by **Chris G.** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:16 pm

That table cloth into a cotehardie is pretty sweet. Did you dye it, or did it come gold?

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:41 pm

It's interesting folks are on to fabric, because this is the one thing I noticed in most or all of the clothes pictured. The fabric looks wrong. I'm not talking about the pattern of the fabric, (although most of these patterns give me an impression of the 18th C. not the 15th.) its the fabric sits wrong. It looks synthetic. Part of this could be the tailoring, but it just doesn't "hang" right.
If these fabrics have Rayon in them, that may be part of the issue. It is an amzaing amount of work, it just they feel a bit "costumey".
Pressing and proper foundation could also be an issue.

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:03 pm

Chris G. wrote:That table cloth into a cotehardie is pretty sweet. Did you dye it, or did it come gold?

it came in an pale dark yellow/gold.

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:05 pm

I did Jeff's most recent gown in a silk damask.

Takeaway lesson? Never experiment with a new pattern and theory using the *good* fabric.

I was messing around with different pleat styles, and I'm not entirely happy with the way they turned out, or with the pattern on the sleeves (which was also a new experiment in using cartridge pleating - the cartridge pleating part was perfect, the rest not as much).

Anyway, but there's what a silk damask gown might look like. Unfortunately, I don't have enough of it for a matching gown for myself - he might luck out and get another gown someday down the line...

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:08 pm

Guys, if you're interesting in learning about historical textile patterns, Google definitely is NOT your friend! Most of the descriptions on fabric patterns are either vague ('medieval') or absolutely wrong (renaissance' or 'period'). The exception to this is the Perkin or Historic Room (which has some *amazing* fabrics!)

If you're at all serious about this (and anyone who either wants to undertake a garment of this complexity or spend the money on one) should invent $10 bucks in this book-

Historic Textile Patterns by Frederich Fischbach. It is an amazing resource. I have 2 copies and refer to them constantly.

Gwen

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:15 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote: If you're at all serious about this (and anyone who either wants to undertake a garment of this complexity or spend the money on one) should invent $10 bucks in this book-

Historic Textile Patterns by Frederich Fischbach. It is an amazing resource. I have 2 copies and refer to them constantly.

Ooo! I'll have to check that out!

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:16 pm

That's a nice gown Charlotte, good job! [thumbsup]

This one is also made of silk in a woven in a 15th C. pattern, bought from Quartermasterie in the UK-

The customer paid a fortune for the fabric, but I didn't think it was all that special. He liked it though, and was very happy with the coat.

Gwen

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:17 pm

Transmission weirdness, double post deleted.

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:25 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:That's a nice gown Charlotte, good job! [thumbsup]

Thanks! You might be able to see the doublet peeking out at the neck a bit - that part's yours! He is very shiny in person.