15th C. Thugz! Show us your kit!

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:27 pm

I bet.

Where did you find the fabric?

Gwen

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:35 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote: I bet.

Where did you find the fabric?

Gwen

Jeff actually had it sitting around for years (from back when we didn't have kids to spend all of our money on). He's pretty sure it came from Thai Silks. Last I looked they didn't have it, but if they ever do again...

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:17 pm

Charlotte, what's that scarf or sash Jeff has tucked into his belt?
I've seen similar things in a handful of paintings, but I've never learned what it was...

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:34 pm

It's the tail of his hat- the rest of it is hanging over his shoulder.

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:48 pm

So, that's the type of chaperon you roll yourself, then? I thought that style went out of fashion before the 1450s.

Also, *that's* dedication.

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:21 am

Destichado wrote:So, that's the type of chaperon you roll yourself, then? I thought that style went out of fashion before the 1450s.

Also, *that's* dedication.

Nope - not self rolled. It's extremely easy to make, requiring 3 rectangles, made into tubes. One is stuffed and becomes a donut that sits on the head, the other is pleated and attached around the inside of the donut, becoming the broad "fall" off the back, and a third is long and skinny, becoming a tail that you can wrap around your neck, or stuff in your belt, or wrap the fall up on top of your head in a turban, or... It's a very versatile hat, and you see all sorts of ways of wearing them in art.

I've since replaced the black one in the photo with a silk one which matches the gown.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:41 am

Charlotte J wrote:He's pretty sure it came from Thai Silks.

It did; I damn myself for not snatching up some of that material when it was there

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:01 pm

*topic kick*

Sitting in the echafaud at a tournament, commenting and drinking wine.

Come on peeps, post those pics! Give this thread some love!

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:07 pm

I forgot to mention that Jeff was quite taken with the way you have a brooch suspended from the top laces of your doublet. He thought it was uber-cool, and plans to wear his Phoenix medallion that way. Nice touch!

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:19 pm

Toby Capwell in his chapter robes. Tournament of the Phoenix, October 2009

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:32 pm

Thanks! He must have seen it at Hackaland I guess.
I stole the idea from Joram, who used to hang a splendid replica of the Middleham jewel over his gown this way, so credits must go to him.

Smashing pic of Toby!

Here are two more pics I like very much, from a foot tournament last year which was the first where I felt the perfect tournament atmosphere of sportsmanship and chivalry. Winning was least important of all, it was all about the pageantry.

Although the haybales are most ugly and inauthentic this photo shows a lot about he atmosphere:

Two gentlemen playing chess between the fights, still in armour, chatting along about the tourney, the weather and having some snacks.

And a pic of Arne and Frits

Both pics are (C) 2009 Bertus Brokamp

MacGowan Metals · Post by **MacGowan Metals** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:17 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote: Toby Capwell in his chapter robes. Tournament of the Phoenix, October 2009

That is indeed a smashing picture of Mr. Capwell. Though, the one thing that stood out to me is his vambraces. I've never seen a set like that. I would so love to see what they are based off.

Jason Smith

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:27 pm

There are examples in statuary, and a painting by... Van Eyck? I think it was one of his.

sieppolukko · Post by **sieppolukko** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:48 am

Hi all!

This is me as a 15thC. backwood thug, or a scandinavian handgonner in winter clothing.

[img]http://lh4.ggpht.com/_wNXkWssVa-8/Sy4P0 ... IM0768.jpg[/img]

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:47 am

Welcome to the Archive Sieppolukko! Nice atmosphere with the snow in your photo! Over here we've had more snow than we've had in the last ten years, and after being inspired by your photo, I decided to play around with the autoshutter of my camera.
Here are some results:

On the battlefield there are 2 kinds of people: Archers and Targets..

Bertus Brokamp · Post by **Bertus Brokamp** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:18 am

And also big men, who can pick you up!
Frits toying with Arne here.

[img]http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak ... 4021_n.jpg[/img]

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:29 am

Kaos, sieppolukko, these are very nice. They look very natural and real. Some minor things, but over all Well done.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:35 am

Chris Gilman wrote:Kaos, sieppolukko, these are very nice. They look very natural and real. Some minor things, but over all Well done.

I would love to know the minor details, as I do not yet have an eye for such things.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:47 am

LoLs @ Bertus.

MJBlazek wrote:
Chris Gilman wrote:Kaos, sieppolukko, these are very nice. They look very natural and real. Some minor things, but over all Well done.
I would love to know the minor details, as I do not yet have an eye for such things.

In my case it would be:
the loose hosen (which I really need to put in the hot wash again - annoys me like hell to see them like this),
the leather grip on the bow (which shouldn't be there),
and the flights of my arrows should be white/natural

for as far as I can tell.

Also, the sallet's a tad too early for the rest of the kit, but I think I can get away with that.

And, if you're really nitpicking, you can notice the reflection on the bow, indicating it was lacquered to keep it protected from the elements better, but at least it's a yew bow, with horn nocks.

Bertus Brokamp · Post by **Bertus Brokamp** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:38 am

Gerry,

, if you are in need still of a bracer, why not make a replica of the simple bone one found in Haarlem? Nice detail to get right.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:51 am

Well, actually I tried to make one, and it was almost finished when the bone cracked when I riveted the straps on.

I've still got a nice wide strip of bone left, but I first need to see how much bone I'm going to need for my crossbow, before I spend it on other items. I might need the wide bone for the table of the crossbow, and I'd rather use the big one than two smaller pieces. So it's all about priorities.

Of course, I could've borrowed Gerlinde's horn one, but just forgot all about it. Too early, I guess. Especially after all the alcohol I drank last weekend.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:40 pm

@ Jason, re Toby's arms. From Toby:

'They are quite precise reconstructions of the vambraces on Donatello's St George, made for the exterior of Orsanmichele in Florence. It was a commission paid for by the Florence armourers' guild. The original is now in the Museo del Bargello, while a copy has been installed at the church.'

Gwen

Carnifex- · Post by **Carnifex-** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:10 pm

Kaos wrote:LoLs @ Bertus.

MJBlazek wrote:
Chris Gilman wrote:Kaos, sieppolukko, these are very nice. They look very natural and real. Some minor things, but over all Well done.
I would love to know the minor details, as I do not yet have an eye for such things.
In my case it would be:
the loose hosen (which I really need to put in the hot wash again - annoys

Nice Kit. Concerning the "loose hosen" how would people back then have avoided this loosening of the hosen. IsnÂ´t it normal that material stretches during use?

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:33 pm

MJBlazek wrote:
Chris Gilman wrote:Kaos, sieppolukko, these are very nice. They look very natural and real. Some minor things, but over all Well done.
I would love to know the minor details, as I do not yet have an eye for such things.

My minor nit-pikâ€™s where not period related, I am not knowable enough of this period to pick out minor anachronisms, they where construction related. The lining of Kaoâ€™s coat is rolling out of the lower hem where it looks like it wasnâ€™t basted into the hem. And the legs on sieppolukkoâ€™s kit look big and â€œSCAishâ€

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:39 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:

Toby Capwell in his chapter robes. Tournament of the Phoenix, October 2009

Some wear a "kit" and some just wear clothes. Toby is in the latter camp.

And I saw him on TV last night explaining four wheel braking on a horse.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:54 pm

The lining of Kaoâ€™s coat is rolling out of the lower hem where it looks like it wasnâ€™t basted into the hem.

Do you mean where he has the sleeve turned up (intentionally) to expose the lining? I can't seem to find any other image of him on this thread.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:00 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:The lining of Kaoâ€™s coat is rolling out of the lower hem where it looks like it wasnâ€™t basted into the hem.

Do you mean where he has the sleeve turned up (intentionally) to expose the lining? I can't seem to find any other image of him on this thread.

Kaos.. about five posts up, it's the second photo, I think? Visor up, knocked arrow?

Looks like the outside layer of wool shrank faster than the lining. (at least, that exactly what my rock looked like when that happened).

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:14 pm

This is a typical 'feature' with clothing Matuls delivers. We've tested their clothing once, but I'm not pleased with their quality. I've fixed the sleeves, which also had the lining spilling out, but still haven't repaired the bottom hem. It was delivered this way to me. I ordered it when Matuls still had nice Polish prices, so I didn't mind it much, at their current prices I wouldn't have accepted it. There are more things I don't like about it, so we don't order clothing there anymore. Since then we've tried a few other tailors and seamstresses, but stuck with Gwen ever since.

This is my old coat now, which I use for dirty jobs like cooking and soldiering now, so i don't mind too much. Whenever I don't need to look spiffy or need some old clothing I use this coat. I wanted a middle class look for these photo's, so I resorted to this coat.

But you're totally right, it's not okay.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:19 pm

Ah, DOH! I was transfixed by the splendor of you in your green and black outfit, and completely spaced that that was you in the archer's rig.

Gwen

MacGowan Metals · Post by **MacGowan Metals** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:55 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:@ Jason, re Toby's arms. From Toby:

'They are quite precise reconstructions of the vambraces on Donatello's St George, made for the exterior of Orsanmichele in Florence. It was a commission paid for by the Florence armourers' guild. The original is now in the Museo del Bargello, while a copy has been installed at the church.'

Gwen

Gwen,
Thank you very much. I shall be off and searching momentarily.
I hope no one thought I was questioning the accuracy of his armour. Actually, knowing of his reputation, my first thought was, "So where have these been hiding all my armouring life?" followed by the second thought "Where can I find more images?"

Thank Toby sharing the information.

Jason

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:10 pm

Hi Jason-

Can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't think you were questioning the accuracy of his rig. He's the only one in the world with a reproduction heroic armour, so it's not surprising that you haven't seen arms like that before. It's very unique, which is one of the reasons Toby likes it.

He's really busy, but I'm sure if he has the time he'd be happy to help you with more info on they style, if you'd like. He's not hard to find, he works at the Wallace Collection.

Gwen

patric · Post by **patric** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:16 pm

this is not my current kit (for many a good reason), but i really love the way iron looks in snow....

-patric

sieppolukko · Post by **sieppolukko** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:11 pm

Kaos: great archer pictures! It wasn't summer all the time at the 15th century. I'm interested about the practicality of the medieval military clothes, especially when used on travelling and on colder seasons. 15th century clothing being specially tight and, umm, weird, it's nice to try out how it really works in rougher use. For instance, hose in my travelling set is intentionally made a little loose (I know, its so uncool) to accommodate knee lenght wool socks and woollen braies underneath.

Gwen's pictures about pleated gown were very helpful since I've been sitting on some fabric for a long time now, not having courage to start making my own (I'm afraid of pleats). But maybe I'll do it on Christmas holiday.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:02 pm

Indeed. We've done a few winter events, and I must say the general clothing is fairly all-season. The properties of wool in the winter have amazed me a fair few times, while still being relatively cool in summer. A thicker wool can be used if it's getting colder, but even the thinner variants keep you rather warm.
Now do you have very different winters from us in the Netherlands, but we've had an event where it was -10 degrees celcius at night with a very foul wind all day long and it was very passable. Sleeping under woolen blankets worked great too.

We've been trying to plan some traveling next season to gather some practical knowledge about his part of 15th century military life. It seems travel in armour took place very regularly, as it's the most practical way to transport it and carts for luggage were seldom used.
We'll try to bring some horses, a donkey cart and everything we need to bring along which we can carry. I hope we can get it done next year, because it sounds very exciting.

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:36 pm

GoneRiding wrote:

Hey Little Brother, of all your kits, including the dead sexy 16th century one you had when you jousted up here with us, this is BY FAR the kit that I have always thought was your best. A completely drop dead, kick ass, outfit that I have always wanted to get.

You should post pics of the 15th century clothes you had made as well.

Talk to you soon.