Tell Me About Tabards

[JvR]

There are a lot of factors at play.

The bottom line is, people want a way to designate what team people are on.

Authentic heraldic livery is impractical or impossible to make because it would not be appropriate for all the eras the SCA covers. So, the generic "heraldic poncho" is made in an attempt to have a medievalesque heraldic means of displaying what team people are on.

I guess tape on the helms is the best we can do.

Steve

Tape is obviously not historical so I don't think anyone will confuse it with historical accuracy. I can see folks assuming the wearing of unit tabards to be historical fact though.

I still need to remind myself its a private club to play a mediavalish game. Not living-history or re-enactment. I personally would like to see the org move towards more correct things and still retain some of its peculiar institutions.

Many people seriously think the SCA is living history or re-enactment and many folks in it continue to tell others that it is. What they see in the SCA is often times assumed to be well researched and applied. Much of it actually is to a degree, some its own creation or application or period items.

Is it horrible to use a "tabard" in such a non historical manner? No not really. I just don't see it as an anachronism as much as a minor error in application. If it is indeed an error.I am still learning. As long as folks present it or let onlookers know hats not how they did it in history, it should be ok. Well it its a demo. But with the tech like You Tube and such, people find SCA videos under living history and other searches and folks will assume what they see is accurate.

I just like to see a move to accuracy. The SCA has come a long way and can continue to do so unless its to a point where its stuck in its own peculiarities. Even if then, its still a fun organization. I could wear a sandwich board tabard that looks exactly like a dozen other folks around me in battle if it helps others as like I said before. I need to remind myself its just a game afterall.

[Richard de Scolay]

It seems then that the SCA has its "tabard" usage entirely wrong for the most part. Well as far as identical armor coverings / sandwich board style covers.

You can't say that universally for every person in the SCA. For you as a Landknecht perhaps, but there are persona's in the SCA where it is correct or at least reasonably so.

If you look at all the pictures here and on the pages that Karen has pointed out, you will see nearly every kind of tabard or surcoat that could possibly exist. Including the typical rectangular non-fitted shape that is popular in the SCA. There is also plenty of evidence of groups of soldiers fighting under similar livery colors and/or badges of one sort or another within one period or another covered by the SCA.

In each group of fighters in the SCA there will be individuals from many periods in history. As an individual they may or may not have worn groups colors, their own arms (or device) or what have you, but in order for the groups to operate you need to be able to separate in your mind the individual presentation from the groups presentation.

As a Landknecht, you may not have worn a surcoat and as such when you are acting as an individual you shouldn't wear one. When you act as part of a group you may want to or be asked to wear a heraldic surcoat or perhaps just the group colors because the group is portraying a period where that would have been done.

In my opinion the biggest problem with historical representations within the SCA comes about when a single individual mixes elements together that come from wildly different periods or cultures. But, when you are mixing individual and group presentations, you can't always avoid it.

When these anachronisms occur you should be aware of it and help spread that awareness, especially if the public is involved. But it is the nature of the SCA that these anachronisms will exist simple because everyone can choose their own persona.

--Richard

[JvR]

It seems then that the SCA has its "tabard" usage entirely wrong for the most part. Well as far as identical armor coverings / sandwich board style covers.

You can't say that universally for every person in the SCA. For you as a Landknecht perhaps, but there are persona's in the SCA where it is correct or at least reasonably so.

If you look at all the pictures here and on the pages that Karen has pointed out, you will see nearly every kind of tabard or surcoat that could possibly exist. Including the typical rectangular non-fitted shape that is popular in the SCA. There is also plenty of evidence of groups of soldiers fighting under similar livery colors and/or badges of one sort or another within one period or another covered by the SCA.

In each group of fighters in the SCA there will be individuals from many periods in history. As an individual they may or may not have worn groups colors, their own arms (or device) or what have you, but in order for the groups to operate you need to be able to separate in your mind the individual presentation from the groups presentation.

As a Landknecht, you may not have worn a surcoat and as such when you are acting as an individual you shouldn't wear one. When you act as part of a group you may want to or be asked to wear a heraldic surcoat or perhaps just the group colors because the group is portraying a period where that would have been done.

In my opinion the biggest problem with historical representations within the SCA comes about when a single individual mixes elements together that come from wildly different periods or cultures. But, when you are mixing individual and group presentations, you can't always avoid it.

When these anachronisms occur you should be aware of it and help spread that awareness, especially if the public is involved. But it is the nature of the SCA that these anachronisms will exist simple because everyone can choose their own persona.

--Richard

Awesome. Thank you. I do over think stuff. I am not trying to slam the SCA or anything, I like it and want to get more involved.

I always look into the history of what I am about to embark on and like to know as much as I can before I do it. I agree with what you said and need to really think it over. I can see me wearing one in the context of the SCA as a game and just having fun.

I will probably go ahead and make one because a big part of me wants to be active with my group and to have the honor of wearing their colors. Accurate or not, it would truly be an honor to hit the field with such people.

[Jestyr]

JvR... are you coming to practice on Thursday? If so, I'm happy to share with you some personal experiences and observations.

[chef de chambre]

Wow , so much info.

Is it that many in the SCA just dont know ? or don't care? I know its really not a historical organization as much as its a private club to play a medieval game. Which is fine as long as its pointed out to spectators that much of what the org does or displays is NOT historical. It just looks that way.

It seems then that the SCA has its "tabard" usage entirely wrong for the most part. Well as far as identical armor coverings / sandwich board style covers.

I am going to withhold from making one then. I don't want to perpetuate a falsehood. Still lots of good info here. Looks like I may be purchasing some books.

Edited to ask. Whats up with the SCA "tabards" with semi sleeves? Is it a totally SCA creation? the big flappy rectangles hanging off the shoulders. the historical pictures I am finding so far look different.

edited to add

I guess since its his children they can wear the same. The tabards also look like what I was asking about. Sandwich board with square flappy sleeves. It seems the SCA is using this style? just in huge numbers not documented historically..
http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/p/pourbus/pieter/portgall.html

Yes, they wear the same arms (although you can't see because they are behind him , probbly differenced in some way with some sort of cadency) because they are his children, and noble, and that is the final form of tabard I have been writing about, which by 1450 is a very specific object. with specific connotations. Peers (in the historical sense, lords on up) and heralds wore them, and pursuivants wore them sideways, to specifically mark their lower status than herald.

The 'tabard' which first comes into useage in England, is a civil garment, that had the slit sides, and, which by the 15th century, would be likely described as a 'huke' (Joan of Arc was captured wearing one of cloth of gold, when she was captured) in the 15th century, in a civl context, the term tabard having been relegated to a heraldic garment of some sort (although not the final form it appears in), by the latter half of the 14th century.

[JvR]

JvR... are you coming to practice on Thursday? If so, I'm happy to share with you some personal experiences and observations.

I am not sure. I can now do 1 a month but I am not sure what day I will be making it.

Richard made some good points I never considered. If I end up being a regular, I would be honored to wear the Shires colors. Historical or not. What he said made sense.

[Kaos]

[img]http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/MUHLBERGER/uploaded_images/trial-by-combat-774313.jpg[/img]
Judical Duel
ca 1473-1480

Herald:


Herald:


Herald:



Richard Quartermayne, image from a glass window in the chapel he founded. 1460/70's


Jean Fouquet
French, Tours, 1455

[img]http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7004080.JPG
[/img]
Somewhat earlier
Kunstwerk: Temperamalerei-Holz ; Tafelbild ; Südtirol
Dokumentation: 1405 ; 1415 ; Neustift ; Italien ; Südtirol ; Stiftsgalerie
Anmerkungen: 156x133,7 ; Votivbild des Hildebrand von Jauffenberg ; Paul Naredi-Rainer, Lukas Madersbacher, Kunst in Tirol, Innsbruck-Wien 2007, Bd. 1, S. 334f.

Just a series of images I found on my PC, for all it's worth. Hope this helps.

[Graf Hans]

Just a note on Landsknechte....if livery was worn, it was not in the form of a garment worn over one's armour. I portray a Landsknechte officer in the SCA, so when I wear livery which is not my own it is generally a scarf around the crown of my helm. Less commonly, a sash worn as a baldric in the colors of whomever it is that I am working for. Even my own stuff is just correct clothing in the colors of my heraldry. Personally, I *hate* tabards...because most of what I see is a sandwich board in trigger!

Hans