The Armour Archive

(I hope I'm spelling that right)

OK. For anyone who wasn't there Pennsic was HOT. Damn HOT!... until the monsoon hit on Saturday night during breakdown (I hope everyone made it out ok)

So as I was lounging around camp and trying not to sweat too much by not moving but I was appreciating all of the period furniture and accouterments that camp has invested in recently and it struck me that medieval furniture is NOT comfortable for lounging. Eventually I copped out, pulled out an air-mattress and lay down in the shade for a siesta. The air-mattress made me feel 'dirty' but surviving until sunset took priority.

I'm looking to find a medieval 'chaise lounge' relaxing type chair. I'm presuming that I will need to look into more southern cultures, maybe Greece, southern Italy or Sicily and have an 'imported' chair for my persona. I'd like to stick 13th-15th century rather then early Roman, Egyptian or Middle-Eastern etc.

I immediately went to Karen Larsdatters page but came up blank. Can anyone offer any good suggestions?

Thanks,
Sean

Sean Powell wrote:(I hope I'm spelling that right)

It's "chaise longue." It's French for "long chair."

Hah, Blaine, ya beat me to it!

While anyone can lounge in it, it still has to be longue enough.

Just lay out the cot roll. The Roman custom of specific furniture for lounging about seems not to have been common in medieval Europe.

Sean Powell wrote:(I hope I'm spelling that right)

OK. For anyone who wasn't there Pennsic was HOT. Damn HOT!... until the monsoon hit on Saturday night during breakdown (I hope everyone made it out ok)

So as I was lounging around camp and trying not to sweat too much by not moving but I was appreciating all of the period furniture and accouterments that camp has invested in recently and it struck me that medieval furniture is NOT comfortable for lounging. Eventually I copped out, pulled out an air-mattress and lay down in the shade for a siesta. The air-mattress made me feel 'dirty' but surviving until sunset took priority.

I'm looking to find a medieval 'chaise lounge' relaxing type chair. I'm presuming that I will need to look into more southern cultures, maybe Greece, southern Italy or Sicily and have an 'imported' chair for my persona. I'd like to stick 13th-15th century rather then early Roman, Egyptian or Middle-Eastern etc.

I immediately went to Karen Larsdatters page but came up blank. Can anyone offer any good suggestions?

Thanks,
Sean

I've never seen one I'd call "campaign furniture" by a long stretch.

Real furniture? Yeah. Something you'd have in a tent? Nope.

You can get "oid" with some of the wood slat teak stuff out there.. same basic construction as the German X and K chairs.. but it's not documentable.

You might look for Phillip II's "invalid chair" c1595. I looked for it with Google, and couldn't find it.

I didn't get around to "Larsdattering" it.


Edited because if I'm going to verb a Research Goddess, I ought to spell her name right when verbing her.

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:You might look for Phillip II's "invalid chair" c1595. I looked for it with Google, and couldn't find it.

I didn't get around to "Larsdottiring" it.

Hah, looka' me, I'm a verb.

Here's Phillip II's chair, but there's really not enough examples of pre-17th century wheelchairs to make a website out of 'em.

(There's a few other conveyances that show up -- see the linkspages on lepers and crutches, for example, and this image from the Luttrell Psalter, but I don't think that's what you're looking for.)

A lot of what I tend to see in outdoor settings, furniture-wise, is the same stuff that we'd see in interiors. But then & again, these aren't necessarily honest depictions of everyday people just chilling out; everyday people really didn't have a whole lot of time for chilling out, you know? So while I could point you towards things like this scene from the Story of Nastagio degli Onesti, or Sir Anthony Mildmay's pavilion interior, these just aren't what you're looking for; far more formal set-pieces, really, where the furniture is part of how the artist is setting up the picture to tell you about the status of the subject.

The pic that Karen posted of Philip II's invalid chair is a detail from a larger drawing of his chair, dated 1596. It is on castors and the back and leg rest are adjustable. A full page photo is on page 189 of The Italian Renaissance Interior 1400-1600 by Peter Thornton (1991). I googled the manuscript number (MS.11.1028, f.157) and the only hit is a long pdf auction catalog from last year. A small scan of the drawing is on p.196 of the pdf. (It was cited in reference to some 16th c Spanish benches with fold-up backs, upholstered in leather.)

If you have a fast internet connection the catalog is fascinating- I especially like the small 15th c walnut table on p.67.


Tracy

meh. I'd still say go for a Roman Couch. Thats THE life.

or a Hammock, though, thats post period for europe.

God I love the archive some times.

Thanks all. I didn't think there would be any "chaise longue"'s in medieval Europe but I just had to check. A Roman 1-armed couch would be damn nice but tricky to transport. Also they don't really offer head support unless you have someone feeding you grapes. Too bad. Sitting around with my feet up and snacking on a plate of dates, cheeses, crackers and chilled wine in the shade really appeals (especially now that I'm stuck at work)

I'm going to have to put my mind to peri-oid solutions under 'how would they have handled this in the 15th century?" when I know damn well the answer is "sit under a tree in the shade" and not try to built and transport comfortable seating. Perhaps I can convert wone of the crullie chairs (S chair?) to the job with a high enough back and a seperate foot-rest.

The hammock also appeals but I'd rather peri-oid then modern despite the number of exposed coolers and acordian chairs other people use in camp (lead by example).

If anyone else has any suggestions feel free to make them. I know squat about spanish, mongolian, middle-eastern or far eastern furniture so there might be an alternate solution waiting to be found.

Thanks,
Sean

P.S. Karen, you are far too wonderful to be merely a verb... but one day I expect JT to add a link to your pade right below the search function and label it "GFKLI"

P.P.S. Maeryk, I'm familiar with "S chairs" that have the 2 S shaped legs and fold like a modern directors chair. I assume the X chairs are fauld-stools with the interleaved seat slats, What are K chairs?

Sean

Sean Powell wrote:The air-mattress made me feel 'dirty' but surviving until sunset took priority.

Why? Air mattresses were invented in Germany late 14th, early 15th century by Konrad Kyeser. See for example this image from 1405. Just make an historically accurate air mattress and feel smug instead of dirty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Konra ... Ausschnitt).jpg

Please copy/paste that URL instead of clicking it. phpBB chokes on the parenthesis in that link.

P.P.S. Maeryk, I'm familiar with "S chairs" that have the 2 S shaped legs and fold like a modern directors chair. I assume the X chairs are fauld-stools with the interleaved seat slats, What are K chairs?

[img]http://www.greydragon.org/furniture/stbg-chair48.jpg[/img]

Sean,

The "S" type chair is often referred to as "curule" and more frequently "Savonarola" as one famous block print of the mad monk has him seated on just such a chair. Infrequently, they are described as "serpentine" chairs.

Use a short X chair with a fabric or leather stretcher for a footstool with whatever period chair you happen to have. Maybe not the best for a nap but still fairly comfy to take a load off after a session of camp packing.

Sean Powell wrote:I didn't think there would be any "chaise longue"'s in medieval Europe but I just had to check.

Bear in mind that it was considered entirely proper to receive guests while lying in your bed. (Which, BTW, is still more modest than the Romans, who were known to conduct business while sitting on the john.)

Here is King Phillip's invalid chair.

More of a recliner than a chaise longue, but it looks like someone who knew what they were doing could create something along those lines, and it would be reasonably portable.

Would not a simple rope bed frame without a mattress be usable as a sort of period hammock?

Thomas

Sander Marechal wrote:

Sean Powell wrote:The air-mattress made me feel 'dirty' but surviving until sunset took priority.

Why? Air mattresses were invented in Germany late 14th, early 15th century by Konrad Kyeser. See for example this image from 1405. Just make an historically accurate air mattress and feel smug instead of dirty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Konra ... Ausschnitt).jpg

Please copy/paste that URL instead of clicking it. phpBB chokes on the parenthesis in that link.

Because it was a modern vinyl air-mattress not a leather air-bag. Also I'm an engineer plus hobbiest woodworker and metal-pounder, not leather or cloth worker so making wooden furniture appeals to me while a period air mattress is somthing I would rather buy.

King Philips 'lay-z-boy' recliner has possibilities but it really doesn't look all that comfortable. Also it needs to be padded and padding holds in heat. A strong negative.

This summer I built a rope-bed for my daughter based on a 12th century byzantine relief. The bed/cot in question is laced in a diamond pattern with a stretcher-bar to tension it. It worked VERY well this pennsic. I'm now thinking about a similar design where a seperate upper 3rd of the bed could be added at an angle and the head-board adapted to hold the back in an upright position. Done properly the anacronistic back-rest could be removed and leave a perfectly serviceable and documentable cot. Plus I would want/need to transport the cot for my daughter anyway...

...hmmm. Liz and I broke our bed this past Pennsic. (Mind out of the gutter, my daughter was in the same tent. It had more to do with a poor design to begin with). If I built 3 cots each half as wide as a queen mattress I could lock 2 together for us adults, use 1 for Eleanor and dismantle them into chaise longues for mid-day.

Sorry for the ramble. I can't quite get my mind back on work post-pennsic.

Sean

Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:Here is King Phillip's invalid chair.

hmmmm...... anyone have a bigger version of this?
( or high enough res that I can zoom in? )

Looks interesting and I LOVE figuring stuff like this out.

Is the Hollywood thing where they clean up images
total fiction ( or top secret science ) or can an image
like this be made higher res through some software
package? ( preferably free.... )

hmmm....

I found another image of the chair and strangely enough
the cruder drawing image is easier to understand



It would not be all that hard to make, but it would not be very portable.

here we go....




This would probably fit your requirements. It would not look modern.
It could be used at a cot also. It would pack flat and not take up much
room. With some minor adjustments to the plans the legs could fold
up also

Baron Conal wrote:hmmm....

I found another image of the chair and strangely enough
the cruder drawing image is easier to understand



It would not be all that hard to make, but it would not be very portable.

If you look closely, I think that you will find that the reinforces at the joints are hinges.

Go to Google Books and look for Calvert's Spanish Arms and Armour. Look at Plate 240 for Charles V's portable chair and you will see what I mean. Yes, it is much earlier, but it is very similar.

http://tinyurl.com/25e7enp

Here is a bad drawing of it:

Baron Conal wrote:here we go....




This would probably fit your requirements. It would not look modern.
It could be used at a cot also. It would pack flat and not take up much
room. With some minor adjustments to the plans the legs could fold
up also

Fits my requirements exactly... except to my eye it looks modern. I'm wondering what I can do to disguise it or modify the design for more of a medieval aestetic. Maybe if I tweak the construction so it goes together like the Gokstad bed...

Sean

Sean Powell wrote:

Baron Conal wrote:here we go....




This would probably fit your requirements. It would not look modern.
It could be used at a cot also. It would pack flat and not take up much
room. With some minor adjustments to the plans the legs could fold
up also

Fits my requirements exactly... except to my eye it looks modern. I'm wondering what I can do to disguise it or modify the design for more of a medieval aestetic. Maybe if I tweak the construction so it goes together like the Gokstad bed...

Sean

Well, it's going to look modern because it _is_ modern.

Like I said.. I've been looking for YEARS for something that is equivalent to a chaise long and have yet to find one.

I'm not sure which bugs me more.. "modern" stuff, or "modern stuff made to look kinda medieval".. but they both squick me about equally.

Because, you know, "modern stuff made to look medieval" is why we have scads of people who believe the vikings hauled boy-scout stargazer chairs on campaign with em.

Maeryk wrote:Because, you know, "modern stuff made to look medieval" is why we have scads of people who believe the vikings hauled boy-scout stargazer chairs on campaign with em.

Ahem... /PBHTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!/

A star-gazer chair looks no more medieval then horns on a viking helmet. We both know this. Anyone who thinks they look medieval needs to look in a history book.

This project is doomed and has esentially reached a dead end for the same reasons you listed BUT if I do actually put something together I will at least attempt to construct it in a medieval fashion with a medieval sense of aestetic. If Olaf had said "Screw it. I'm tired of fjords and icebergs! I'm sailing south until I find white sand, trees with giant leaves and can get milk from a nut rather then a goat." he might have built a chair that looked like "X". If Columbus had said "These East India people need to learn how to speak their own language but they serve a mean pina-colada." he might have lounged on a chair that looked like "X". Lacking any evidence so far I'm just daydreaming about what "X" might have looked like.

Right now I have not much to work from.

Sean

This is not me arguing that it is medieval. I do not want
anyone to think I am.

Its just a platform on legs when its flat.

When you look at it that way it is medieval-ish. Our needs
to have things pack up and transport easily are not medieval
at all. If you where of sufficient rank to get your bed carried
around for you on campaign I'm willing to bet packing space
was not as much of a concern as it it for us. Your entourage
packed it on a wagon ( or onto wagons depending on just
how high your rank was ) Below that rank you would probably
be on the ground with a bed roll.

I do not see anything that obviously says MODERN!
other than the fact we still see items with this basic
design still being made. There are other items that are
medieval that are still in use.

Can you put into words what about it looks modern?
( honestly curious... ) Or is it just a modern feel you cannot
fully explain?

I'll admit it looks less medieval in a raised position,
but I haven't seen anything with the function you
want that is medieval.

A cushion/mattress would probably help it blend
in more.

Replace the slats with ropes and it might look less modern
and it would be lighter weight for transport. But slats are
certainly medieval. Wider slats might help that visual issue.

Sean Powell wrote:

Maeryk wrote:Because, you know, "modern stuff made to look medieval" is why we have scads of people who believe the vikings hauled boy-scout stargazer chairs on campaign with em.

Ahem... /PBHTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!/

A star-gazer chair looks no more medieval then horns on a viking helmet. We both know this. Anyone who thinks they look medieval needs to look in a history book.

This project is doomed and has esentially reached a dead end for the same reasons you listed BUT if I do actually put something together I will at least attempt to construct it in a medieval fashion with a medieval sense of aestetic. If Olaf had said "Screw it. I'm tired of fjords and icebergs! I'm sailing south until I find white sand, trees with giant leaves and can get milk from a nut rather then a goat." he might have built a chair that looked like "X". If Columbus had said "These East India people need to learn how to speak their own language but they serve a mean pina-colada." he might have lounged on a chair that looked like "X". Lacking any evidence so far I'm just daydreaming about what "X" might have looked like.

Right now I have not much to work from.

Sean

Well, I'd start with extant types of folding chair construction.. like the X or the like, and extrapolate..


something like this:

http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/187-4271176-3452603?asin=B00317MZZM&AFID=Froogle_df&LNM=|B00317MZZM&CPNG=patio%20garden&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=B00317MZZM&ref=tgt_adv_XSG10001

And modify the feet, headboard, etc, to look more like something in period.

If I were going to do it.

it's entirely possible that this is not a medieval concept
and there are no examples to be had. But never say
never and never say aways....

Here are some other examples that might be useful.


early 19th century.....



Victorian




English dated 1877
[img]http://www.antiquewarehouse.net/store/img/portfolio/1279_large.jpg[/img]

early 20th century

http://www.mdantiques.com/collection-361-1-anglo_indian_teak_campaign_day_bed_with_wood_slats.html


( TOTALLY OFF TOPIC - but funny )

All such searches will be ultimately doomed to failure, because the impetus that prompts one get a chase longue was as alien to the mind of the medieval peoples we're recreating as glass tables and wrought iron patio furniture was to the Genghis Kahn's mongols.

"But laying down outdoors is totally natural!"

Yes, but why do you need furniture for that?

Seriously, the medieval solution for this desire is comfortable slope and a blanket. MAYBE an armfull of straw.

Seems like a long time ago Cariadoc did an article on how he made his son's bed that was based on a medieval illumination of the biblical "Take up they bed and walk" basically being a fairly light portable rope bed.

Throw a bag of "stuff" on it to recline against and you're good.

Thomas

roman - bit bulky to lug around tho.



viking - make it long enough and you can lay out and watch football and crash out on sunday after noon!



17th cent



slant the back a bit and add some arms (its a kids bed!,, er long chair) lounge chair once there is some padding!



but this has lazt wrote all over it!



looks kinda old... Mabey not....