The Armour Archive

Out of curiosity what are the ties on this fellows calves. Are they attached to the leg wraps or something separate? Seen a few re-enactors of the 7th century wearing those.

Those are called winingas - basically a woven or braided woolen tape wrapped around the lower leg and secured with a hook.

Historic enterprises makes a fabulous winingas set, seen them in person.

http://historicenterprises.com/package- ... ath=99_117

Finnacan wrote:Those are called winingas - basically a woven or braided woolen tape wrapped around the lower leg and secured with a hook.

Historic enterprises makes a fabulous winingas set, seen them in person.

http://historicenterprises.com/package- ... ath=99_117

I know what those are, I mean the tie at the top of them, just bellow his knees.

Probably just to the keep the damn things up.
Before I found the AA I think I was on version 7 of them til I got them to keep from tripping me.
Then I went to Hastings, the guys there told me the big secret was ...safety pins.

I use garment hooks myself. I had good luck just tucking them in before that.

I've just learned to wrap them in a way that works with my legs. I have gigantic calves, so I have to get them up above my calf muscle, and my lady added another yard of fabric to the wraps to make that easier to do. I can keep them up for 8-10 hours without rewrapping if I do it right.


Edit: And to answer the original question, no I haven't seen ties like that before.

Bleddyn De Caldicot wrote:

Finnacan wrote:Those are called winingas - basically a woven or braided woolen tape wrapped around the lower leg and secured with a hook.

Historic enterprises makes a fabulous winingas set, seen them in person.

http://historicenterprises.com/package- ... ath=99_117

I know what those are, I mean the tie at the top of them, just bellow his knees.

Ah, sorry about that. I thought you were looking for the term for the wraps, not that small cord above the calf.

Still, even you had been far more explicit in description, it may not have helped. I was totally distracted by that Sutton Hoo rig.

I use two small penannular brooches. The Iron age safety pin

That is a tie to keep the winingas up. You will find several ways of doing it. Some will have hooks on the end that hold the wraps in place. Others will use ties like this fellow. I have a set that I have sewn a decorative card woven bit of trim to on the top part of my wraps. I use them as a tie like in the picture and it adds a bit of decoration as well.



I have also seen the wraps covered with a cris-cross lacing that is both decorative and holds the wraps in place. Below is a pic of my kit showing this:



Greenshield

Finnacan wrote:. I was totally distracted by that Sutton Hoo rig.

Its easy to do
Thats Paul Mortimer who occasionally lurks here on the archive.
He kit is seriously awesome.

Wow that was quick...

I posted the following today in the classified/sale area:



........ Normans apparently tied theirs with ribbon or string, after wrapping them. I had been using leather laced tied over them and it usually worked ok, but I intend to make proper laces.

[img]http://www.headlesschicken.ca/eng204/texts/BayeuxTapestry/images/tap8.jpg[/img]

Notice the details in several figures in this section:

1) the riders on the left,
2)seated Duke William, and the man behind him.
3) the man standing behind the one talking to the Duke. You can see leggings, but the leggings are tied over with ribbons or straps. This is especially visible in the X pattern or the white lines on Duke William's legs.

So perhaps Saxons and vikings used hooks. My bet is that Normans wore straps over their puttees...

[img]http://www.lessing-photo.com/p3/310101/31010110.jpg[/img]

Those are straps...


Notice the leggings on the Saxons on foot and the Norman on horse. One is wrapped, the other wrapped AND strapped...

[img]http://www.lessing-photo.com/p3/310101/31010153.jpg[/img]

Perhaps this developed from horseriding, where the friction could undo even the best wrapped winngas unless it had an over wrapping of lace, strips of fabric or leather....

Cnut is wearing what appear to be woven bands like in Greenshield's first picture to garter his winingas:

[img]http://www.freewebs.com/judyarnoppsmedievalpage/cnut.jpg[/img]

I'll match your Knut, and I raise you a Carolingian rider with leg straps

This thread became awesome

The garters are pretty solid but its gonna take some more convincing on the Norman cross thingies.

I will raise yall some wierd Finnish leg accessories

Halvgrimr wrote:The garters are pretty solid but its gonna take some more convincing on the Norman cross thingies.

Awesomeness on the Finnish leg garters.

Are you serious as to the Norman cross thingies? At least on the images from the tapestry they look rock solid. True that I cannot swear what precisely is under the x-crossed straps, whether leg wraps (as I believe) or simply whatever chausses or pants they wore.

My suggestion on the leg wraps covered by straps is based on this train of thought

1) Normans were of Norse origins. Only a couple of generations away from Rollo. We are more or less in agreement that leg wraps were common among "vikings" and Saxons. It would look like our Norman friends shared some of the fashion and custom of this "cultural continuum". There the leg wraps on the Normans
2) Normans were the first of these to develop serious cavalry adopted from the Franks. Now leg wraps are not that great on horse, as the friction may undo them and then they are a mess. With extra straps they become not only slick, but also stay. Not too bad lacking Wellington boots.


I found here a couple more examples:
http://www.agarwaen.net/article6.html?artpage=2-3

Psautier de Lothaire, feuillet 4r (Londres, British Library, MS Add 37768)
(Psalter of Lothar)

[img]http://www.agarwaen.net/local/cache-vignettes/L500xH797/London__British_Library__Ms_Add_37768__4r__Lothar_I-12e81.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.agarwaen.net/local/cache-vignettes/L402xH387/Evangeliaire_de_Lothaire_Paris_BNF_Manuscrits_Lat._266_Tours_849-851_-73ff7.jpg[/img]
Evangélaire de Lothaire (réalisé entre 849 et 851 à Tours, BNF, MS Lat. 266) (Gospel of Lothar)


Lastly I want to add this: common sense.

Norse, Saxon and Norman were practical people. They surely had the same issues we have here to deal with and found different ways to deal with the issues. I am sure that as many leg wraps were worn alone, with a garter and strapped, as we appear to have iconographic evidence for all of them.

Glaukos the Athenian wrote:
Are you serious as to the Norman cross thingies?

Ayup

At least on the images from the tapestry they look rock solid.

Again, I have to say that while the BT is a historical source it isnt infallible.
Using your logic the horses were wearing wraps too
Look at the image you posted
[img]http://www.lessing-photo.com/p3/310101/31010153.jpg[/img]

The horses leg has the same swirling pattern that many of the wrap wearing men do.

True that I cannot swear what precisely is under the x-crossed straps, whether leg wraps (as I believe) or simply whatever chausses or pants they wore.

While Im certainly known as a VA research geek I will admit my knowledge of Normans is limited but I also believe that the use of leg wraps by Normans is limited, Im open to proof (more than pics, Id be more convince by written sources) to the contary though.

My suggestion on the leg wraps covered by straps is based on this train of thought

I will buy that the theory has some sound basis, I'm just not convinced yet, as a research geek thats what I do, seek out additional proof.

Early on in my SCA career I wore leather cross garters like the ones in the images below and they were such an incredible pain in the ass that their life was cut short (literally they were cut into later period garters) to end my frustration.

I found here a couple more examples:

First example, sure, I will buy whats going on here
Second one, not so much, looks like hosen with some fancy ribbon to me.

Lastly I want to add this: common sense.

Norse, Saxon and Norman were practical people. They surely had the same issues we have here to deal with and found different ways to deal with the issues. I am sure that as many leg wraps were worn alone, with a garter and strapped, as we appear to have iconographic evidence for all of them.

Yes, yes, common sense
Sadly we often attribute modern solutions to historical 'problems' that just werent problems at all.

We dont know if what you are seeing is fucntional or decorative/ceremonial, what I am suggesting is we find a source (if it exists) to determine this.

I myself have gone for days wearing the same kit, with the same bindings and have never needed more than to just make simple adjustments (and this is including sleeping in them)

I think the biggest problem most folks have is that the materials they are using is simply not of a period material and they do not 'hug' well.

My bindings are fulled wool
I wear them over wool or linen trousers.
I have NEVER had a problem with them falling.

Then again I have never ridden a horse for a long period of time so your cavalry theory holds some water.

You dont HAVE to prove it but to do so would require more than just some images (for me anyway)

--

Halv,

I agree with your comments, but for every guy that wears leg wraps and they stay, there is at least another guy who cannot get them to stay in place.

I seriously think this happen in period as well.

Notice by the way that I am making a suggestion as to a possible understanding, not claiming that I have the truth revealed to my by God...

I have not been able to tie properly the darned things by themselves. The become loose, they get untied, you see yourself dragging 2 feet of wrap and not even noticing it. Since I added the leather lacing over them, they stayed up all the time when just hanging out, and most of the time when fighting. Does this prove anything in period. No. But people come in all sizes and shapes, and just as today some guys can tie theirs and keep them in place, others can't. Maybe it has to do with the degree of muscle development in the calves.

What appears pretty clear from the BT, even considering all its limitations as a source, is that many of those Norman guys have straps/ribbons of leather or fabric tied criss-cross over their lower legs. They are there.
And the Saxons don't appear to wear the same type of criss-cross pattern on their lower legs....


More leg straps, from the St. Gall Psalterium Aureum

http://www.draconarii.de/fraenkische_kavallerie.jpg

A tantalizing suggestion of Charlemagne

http://www.charlemagne.org/2454c1.jpg

I dunno... sin non e vero, e ben trovatto....

IMO it has more to do with length of the wrap, fastening method, material type and how the material is made/cut.

Because we live in the modern world and this is a hobby we do in our 'spare time' we often don't have the time to do alot of things properly (like loom out a pair of proper bindings) so a great deal of folks take short cuts to create/obtain these things and I think this factor has more to do with the issue than body type or whatever.

FWIW I suspect length is the biggest factor, my bindings are over 3 meters long, alot of the ones I see are just to short and don't have enough (if any) elasticity in the material to allow them to function properly.

The second largest factor IMO is allowing the bindings to full.
This allows them to act like a simplistic form of velcro, allowing them to stick together and not slip as much. If worn enough they full on their own but there are ways to speed up the fulling process for new bindings.

Again, I do not have a problem with slippage and I do not use any fancy fastening methods.

I dont use:

Hooks
Garters
Straps
Cris crossing
I simply tie them at the top of my calf
About as simple as it gets really:)


So to wrap up my end of this, Id be interested in seeing more info on
A) how entrenched into Norman dress were leg wraps?
and
b) given that the criss crossing is evident in some art is it functional or decorative?

We used to have a huge Norman population here on the archive but sadly some of those folks haven't been seen in some time (JesseB and the fellow from Oklahoma/Kansas area come to mind)

Id be interested to hear what Graedwyn, GlenK or any of the other hard core Normans have to say on the matter. (not to discount you Glaukos, Id just like to hear from a larger cross section of the Norman population)

I have to echo Halvgrimr on the wearing of winningas.
I have never had any trouble with them coming loose,
even when riding.
I only have one pair with hooks on them. I wear those
because a friend bought them for me, and I want to show
that I appreciate her gift.
But all of my other wool leg wraps are simply tucked in
at the top and almost never come loose.
my fighting winningas are horse leg wraps that come with
ties at the top, so I tie them(I believe I got the idea from
Greenshield).
Glaukos' supposition is interesting though, especially the
guys on the Tapestry with just a simple tie, or one "X" near
the top of the calf.
As I said, I never really felt the need for such, but others may.

-Graedwyn

Well,

I tested this principle this weekend, at a local archery event. It was not very athletic, but there was a lot of walking about, hanging out, etc.


I had used my previous ties for an emergency use, so I cut two new ones that ended up too short for a full lower leg double wrap, but perfect for a two-turn single X tie on top of the calf, as Sir Graedwyn suggested.

It worked quite well and the wraps never became undone, though I had to re tie the leather lacing once. So this is simpler and works quite well in solving this issue.

yes one could do just a two turn lacing like Paul Mortimer did above in his Sutton Hoo kit, but I am going for the Bayeux Tapestry look, so two turns with an X it will be.

If I can get the time to make two narrow ribbons of contrasting color, it may look just dandy and do the job as well...

Now I need to find horse wraps, or buy linen winnigas for warmer weather...

Glaukos

I've never noticed a heat problem from wool winingas, probably because wrapping my calves in wool doesn't trap much body heat (how much do your calves overheat, anyways?). I've worn them in 90°+ with humidity without an issue.

Alric of Drentha wrote:I've never noticed a heat problem from wool winingas, probably because wrapping my calves in wool doesn't trap much body heat (how much do your calves overheat, anyways?). I've worn them in 90°+ with humidity without an issue.

Same here, I don't tend to really notice if my legs are warm or not the body and head get all the attention.

Conversely though, in really cold conditions the warmth of the wraps is noticeable:)

Remember Norstead Grand Opening James?
700 mile an hour winds on a hill top?
It was one of the few times I really appreciated having authentic wool gear:)

(The other being an early demo we did waaaaaay back when....

http://picasaweb.google.com/schusterrl/ ... Wisconsin# )