Mafia Members: What's cool about 14th Century?

[Keegan Ingrassia]

+Tasha.

[SirCathal]

All the chicks dig Coathardies ... end of story.

[azure d'or]

I came for the pretty clothes and stuck around for the Lollards.

That is to say, I loved the lines of the clothes, and figured they'd look good on me, but without having the go through the intensity of corsetry (which I'm now doing for the very first time, oddly enough). But the history and events of the century are pretty fascinating, and always felt to me like the last of the "middle ages" before things started getting renaissancy. How's that for technical and scholarly?

I agree on the clothes, but I came in as a teenager from the 16th century, thinking I wanted to look like Ann Boleyn ... but my petite size seemed much more suited to the sleeker lines of the 14th century, and then I hit college and got to read Chaucer in the original. At that point, I pretty much threw in with 14th century Scotland and England.

Gwen

[Iain (Bunny) Ruadh]

Thanks, Kenwrec. I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt like that.

"... love the material culture aesthetics of most of the 14thc. I started out exploring the feminine clothing and ended up on the male, martial side of things, clothing-wise. There is something about the meeting of fabric and metal in the 14th century that simply fascinates me and I don't see that ending any time soon."

The thought of her looking at my linen, wool and steel gear with that sweet lil' approvin' smile is more than enough to keep me goin' on the path ... just sayin'!

[Chris Gilman]

I'm trying to be patient, but I've been subscribed to that topic for over a year now. How long must we be tortured?

Now that the Pennsic house is complete and my real house projects are underway, I will endeavor to finish that harness.

[Gaston de Clermont]

I think it's a lot like being attracted to a person. Your initial impression is based simply on what you see. There's a solid inflection point in the "look" of the 14th century that is fundamentally different than previous eras. There's something viscerally appealing about the general aesthetic. The relatively formless clothing before the 14th century doesn't move me. Some of the earlier armour is nice, but I tend to prefer plate, and things that follow the curves of the body. The combinations of textiles, leather and steel scratch an itch somewhere in the back of my brain that other eras don't.

As you get to know the era, like you might with a person you're starting to date, you learn all the fascinating nuances and personal history they have. There's an intriguing tragedy in the way chivalry itself transforms during the century. The conflict of the Hundred Years War and the turmoil of the Black Death is a stunning backdrop for a huge variety of dramas. The century saw the rise of great commerce, art, literature, cruelty, technology, and the birth of the Renaissance. In many ways it's a lot like the 20th century, so it's easy to relate to.

[Tailoress]

Thanks, Kenwrec. I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt like that.

"... love the material culture aesthetics of most of the 14thc. I started out exploring the feminine clothing and ended up on the male, martial side of things, clothing-wise. There is something about the meeting of fabric and metal in the 14th century that simply fascinates me and I don't see that ending any time soon."

The thought of her looking at my linen, wool and steel gear with that sweet lil' approvin' smile is more than enough to keep me goin' on the path ... just sayin'!

You guys are killing me.

[knitebee]

#1 reason is how the ladies look

[jarlragnar]

I think it's a lot like being attracted to a person. Your initial impression is based simply on what you see. There's a solid inflection point in the "look" of the 14th century that is fundamentally different than previous eras. There's something viscerally appealing about the general aesthetic. The relatively formless clothing before the 14th century doesn't move me. Some of the earlier armour is nice, but I tend to prefer plate, and things that follow the curves of the body. The combinations of textiles, leather and steel scratch an itch somewhere in the back of my brain that other eras don't.

As you get to know the era, like you might with a person you're starting to date, you learn all the fascinating nuances and personal history they have. There's an intriguing tragedy in the way chivalry itself transforms during the century. The conflict of the Hundred Years War and the turmoil of the Black Death is a stunning backdrop for a huge variety of dramas. The century saw the rise of great commerce, art, literature, cruelty, technology, and the birth of the Renaissance. In many ways it's a lot like the 20th century, so it's easy to relate to.

You are a Romantic, my friend.

[Josh W]

Y'know...

I've had a few more days to think about it, and I really don't think that there is anything that the 14th century does that the 15th century doesn't do better--badass armour, sexy clothes that make the ladies go crazy, fascinating intrigue, number of men simultaneously laying claim to the papacy, bloody conflicts, et-multiple-cetera and ad nauseam. The first half of the Hundred Years War just can't hold a candle to the Wars of the Roses. The 14th century just pales in comparison, and wilts in the face of the 15th century's over-the-top pure, undiluted Awesome.



If you believe otherwise, meet me in the lists in full harness (even if all you can manage is a *sigh* 14th century kit) and try to beat me with a pollaxe, and thereby prove the truth of your argument upon my body.

[RandallMoffett]

Then I guess we will have to meet in the lists then Josh.

The 14th century is the century.

War of the roses to the Hundred Years War..... I have to say there is no comparison. Hundred Years War, especially the first few decades are really where we see some of the greatest deeds of fame of the medieval period.

The 15th century just too shiny as far as armour goes and clothing wise..... way to close to Tudor clothing at the end for my tastes.

Now that said if I had to do any other period 15th is a fairly close second.

RPM

[jarlragnar]

Y'know...

I've had a few more days to think about it, and I really don't think that there is anything that the 14th century does that the 15th century doesn't do better--badass armour, sexy clothes that make the ladies go crazy, fascinating intrigue, number of men simultaneously laying claim to the papacy, bloody conflicts, et-multiple-cetera and ad nauseam. The first half of the Hundred Years War just can't hold a candle to the Wars of the Roses. The 14th century just pales in comparison, and wilts in the face of the 15th century's over-the-top pure, undiluted Awesome.



If you believe otherwise, meet me in the lists in full harness (even if all you can manage is a *sigh* 14th century kit) and try to beat me with a pollaxe, and thereby prove the truth of your argument upon my body.

Ok, Josh.........

What about the plague, flagellants, revolution in fashion, drastic altering of the medieval mind, Lollardy, the Jacquerie's rise and suppression, COTT, the INVENTION OF THE POLEAXE, the usurpation of the throne by the Lancasters, the last judicial duel in France, the birth of Renaissance painting, the freakiest of the Viscontis, etc....


You can have your puffy shoulders.

[Buster]

Although the 15th century does have some visiually interesting armour, it just doesn't hold my intrest like 14th century stuff.
I like the overall presentation, as well as the mixed materials, of the 14th century.

[Tailoress]

This thread was not complete until Josh came on it and bragged about how great the 15thc was. Seriously. That has to happen, or something just feels... unfinished.

[RandallMoffett]

I think the 15th century thugs just feel insecure honestly.... they know the truth, 14th century is best.

RPM

[Fearghus Macildubh]

The 14th century is the century I would pick if I had to pick just one!

[Charlotte J]

Really, it's the EARLY 15th century that's really happening. Hundred Years War still, Agincourt, incredible sleeves. *Le sigh*.





(Photo credit: Tailoress)

[RandallMoffett]

Traitor....

Granted Henry V is awesome but nearly as soon as he died the HTW gets pretty hairy, Henry VI and his advisors were just not equal to Henry V.

Not so into wide sleeves. They seem to in the way.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Full disclosure: I have some 15th century harness in the works...

But the 14th Century still rocks out.

Best,

John

[Russ Mitchell]

Let's see... the 14th century has the Neopolitan Succession War and the Anglo-Hungarian "mercenaries' alliance" going on, not to mention the French oh-so-deservedly getting their asses kicked ruining Nicopolis, and that's awesome (yours truly, not a fan of the Cult of Chivalry), the 15th century has the Hussite Revolution, the Black Army, and of course Grunwald, which is epic on a scope the HYW can't even comprehend.

Tough call.

[zachos]

I'm afraid to say that the 14th century is not as good as the 15th. I used to prefer houndskull bascinets, then I saw this:



I also used to like coats of plates. Then I had this made:



My eyes were opened. The 15th century is the shiniest, and everyone knows that the ladies love the shiny.

[RandallMoffett]

Zack,

Maybe you 15th century guys need shiny armour to get the girls but us 14th century types have no need of such ostentatious pretenses.

That is a nice hat and cuirass though.

Russ,

Grunwald better than the whole 14th century HYW....... really? HYW is it. Some of the most interesting mixed of personality, tactics and campaigns of the entire premodern world.... maybe just the world.

RPM

[Russ Mitchell]

Eh... are you forgetting what century the HYW ends in?
And yeah, I'll put Grunwald over Agincourt ANY day of the week for epic.

[Russ Mitchell]

I will give it to Gaston on the clothes, though.

[RandallMoffett]

No just the best parts of the HYW are in the 14th, Edward III's reign actually.

RPM

[Charlotte J]

Not so into wide sleeves. They seem to in the way.

Oh, they are! That's why I wear them for La Belle, where I have people to do things for me (being Gentry has its benefits), and not in the SCA.

[jester]

Not so into wide sleeves. They seem to in the way.

Oh, they are! That's why I wear them for La Belle, where I have people to do things for me (being Gentry has its benefits), and not in the SCA.

Clothing as conspicuous consumption: I'm so wealthy I don't have to work as I show by wearing clothing that's entirely unsuited for it.

[Kel Rekuta]

No just the best parts of the HYW are in the 14th, Edward III's reign actually.

RPM

Anglo-centric, aren't you?

Lots of fun stuff happened elsewhere.... the Northern Crusades, Guelph/Ghibelline warfare between the Italian city states, the campaigns on the Iberian Peninsula, the great revolts of the commons - well damned near everywhere...

Most importantly, personal skill at arms and reputation still had value on the battlefield and was not yet relegated to the tourney field. Field warfare was about hand weapons and not about firearms. And that's just the military stuff....

The fifteenth century was tailor made for posers....

[Stuart]

I was first attracted by the combination of colorful fabric and bare steel in the armour. To my mind no period can match the 14th for sheer military pageantry. After reading the history of the period, and getting to know it's people (Edward III, Edward of Woodstock, Bertrand du Guesclin, John Chandos, Blind John of Bohemia, Hugh Calvely, Walter Manny, Jean de Grailly, Henry, Earl of Derby, Thomas Beauchamp Earl Of Warwick... the list is endless) I was captivated. The most interesting of centuries with the most beautiful of armor, and the loveliest of ladies. Who could ask for more?

Sir Stuart

[RandallMoffett]

Kel,

Not completely. I actually have been doing quite a bit of research outside of England the last few years but I still think Edward III has got to be one of the most amazing of European Monarch's of the medieval period.

Starts his reign in one of the worst ways possible. Father ousted by his mother and her lover and is used for a puppet by them. Dad murdered almost certainly by order of one if not both these two. England back skidding onto civil war as it had been much of Ed II's reign and lastly Mortimer increasingly indicating he is plotting to remove Edward III from Earth and take power. And he is just a boy of High School age. And he turns this around to become one of the most powerful rulers in Europe, being king during some of the most interesting battles of the age.

True his last few years are pretty bad and set the stage for major issues but he had one of the longest reigns of any during this period and took over 1/3 or so of France. Not too shabby for a kid who had to overcome a failing country, the ultimate in parental issues and a country full of nobles that was totally divided upon his coronation in his mid to late teens.

RPM

[Kel Rekuta]

And there wouldn't have been a HYW without him!

Yes, Ed III was a remarkable character. He dragged the reputation of English military might from "two Englishmen are not worth even one wretched Scot" in the span of two decades to dominate France, which had the highest military repute early in the 14thC. And he did it for decades after, in spite of constantly being broke and without reliable allies. Apparently adversity breeds greatness.

[Gaston de Clermont]

Kel- Your statements fit together perfectly with Dr. Rogers' assertions in "War Cruel and Sharp." The English learned a lot about tactics from their fights with the Scots, and used that understanding against the French to great effect. He did have major financial struggles, though the wool trade provided a more reliable income than the intensely variable crops the French had to rely on during a long period of horrendous weather. It doesn't hurt to be peddling wool during the little ice age. Wool futures allowed him to finance his (largely ineffective) continental mercenaries.

Seriously, even finance is interesting in the 14th century.

[jarlragnar]

Kel- Your statements fit together perfectly with Dr. Rogers' assertions in "War Cruel and Sharp." The English learned a lot about tactics from their fights with the Scots, and used that understanding against the French to great effect. He did have major financial struggles, though the wool trade provided a more reliable income than the intensely variable crops the French had to rely on during a long period of horrendous weather. It doesn't hurt to be peddling wool during the little ice age. Wool futures allowed him to finance his (largely ineffective) continental mercenaries.

Seriously, even finance is interesting in the 14th century.

Sure is...Didn't he screw over several Italian banks who lent him money to finance the war as well?

[RandallMoffett]

Yes I was not going to mention it but the Bardi and a few others basically are the ones who fund his earliest venture to the Continent. Since he could not get King Phil to face him it was a rather pointless exercise and he ended up unable to pay them back from a lack of financial gains as well. This early campaign really helps him to switch gears for later ones.

Here is some info on them and Edward III

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=33008

I was not going to say anything about bankers as right now it is a rather hot button issue and I did not want to take this post any darker than the insecure 15th centuriers keep going

To be fair he does TRY to repay them.... more or less.

RPM

[Tomburr]

My eyes were opened. The 15th century is the shiniest, and everyone knows that the ladies love the shiny.