The Armour Archive

The Deed at Gulf War is one of the must fun things you can do in armour, and I'm interested in finding ways to improve the quality of not only The Deed itself, but of late 14th century portrayals as a whole. It strikes me that we've been letting ourselves (really, me too) get away with a few things that are, at best, statistical outliers in our kits. Based on Dr. Strong's data here:
http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armou ... lysis.html
it looks to me that both the English and the French forces should be wearing enclosed steel greaves and full sabatons. I know greaves and sabatons are difficult to make, expensive to buy, and might only really change your game for this one fight. Trends changed so fast in the 14th century that what you see in the 1350s (remember the Combat of the 30 was in 1351) were pretty different from the 1380s. A shynbald is solid choice for The 30, but Doug's data doesn't support it as "right" for The Deed. It should be a cased greave. I wouldn't be surprised to find a few instances of folks of the knightly class with no sabatons in the 1380s, but in France and England, at least in their effigies, they wore them.

So I'm throwing down the gauntlet here. I'm going to take my kit up a notch this year, and challenge you to do the same. Make it epic. I want to fight folks who have gone the extra mile on this, and not only fight in correct harness, but do so with great skill. I promise if anyone can wearing cased greaves and sabatons can capture me in The Deed in 2012 they will get an exceptional ransom.

I don't mean this statement to dissuade folks with an otherwise appropriate harness from coming out. You have to have at least a frontal greave to play, and I STRONGLY recommend a full face plate and maile. Come and play. Make it amazing.

Sir Gaston de Clermont, OL, General of Ansteorra, Captain of the French forces in The Deed 2012.

I intend to be there after missing the last two thanks to ole Uncle Sam. I am stoked! I am going to try and return to the field in an almost completely new harness. I look forward to meeting you on the field in most joyous combat!
Sir Alexander Brighthelmston declaring for the English

Excellent! It will be good to cross axes with you again.

Look at Sir Fancypants going and guilting everybody to try to be as pretty as hisself.

Sheesh. Guess I needed new greaves anywho... my half greaves just don't fit right (and I got the scar above my ankle from the CotT to prove it). Sheesh.

Max VH

It's not all guilt trip. I'm offering an incentive of cool loot. And the target is to look prettier than I do today. I'm not the prettiest guy on the field, dear baron of bling!

Gaston de Clermont wrote:It's not all guilt trip. I'm offering an incentive of cool loot. And the target is to look prettier than I do today. I'm not the prettiest guy on the field, dear baron of bling!

Fair enough. As you rightly note, you are, in fact, leading by example and promoting through incentive.

Had to go and get all accurate and stuff, didn't ya!

But I don't know... that guy standing on the right in red in the picture below looks pretty damn flash (even if it appears he MAY be staring at me bum...).



Max Von Halstern

Gaston de Clermont wrote:I promise if anyone can wearing cased greaves and sabatons can capture me in The Deed in 2012 they will get an exceptional ransom.

_Just_ cased greaves and sabatons? Or are they allowed to wear other pieces of armor too?

And I'm assuming that taking two greaves and duct taping them to either side of my lower legs isn't going to count as "cased".

-T

Max- with the pigface on I probably can't see your bum from that close.
Tegan- If someone is really bold (i.e. stupid) enough to try and skilled enough to take me out wearing just greaves and sabatons, they'll get some serious booty. I suspect they'll also get a bit hurt in the attempt. I guess there's some glory in that folly. Just please don't make me explain what happened to your mom.

Thank goodness I have cased greaves. Sounds fun, I look forward to the challenge.

Lucian- do you have sabatons too? I'm still trying to figure out what would be worthy of this challenge. I've done some good hand blown glass cups in a 14th century style. Considering who ever can do this challenge already has armour, giving them more armour seems a little goofy.

Gaston de Clermont wrote:Lucian- do you have sabatons too? I'm still trying to figure out what would be worthy of this challenge. I've done some good hand blown glass cups in a 14th century style. Considering who ever can do this challenge already has armour, giving them more armour seems a little goofy.

Indeed I do, good knight. Just updated to a newer pair recently, actually.
I always thought hand-crafted ransoms were a great personal touch. I offered up a rosary which I made for my ransom at the last COTT I fought in.

I am coming to get you, froggy.

Froggy has friends. Hopefully I may be one of 'em. Liked fighting next to him at Pennsic, I did.

Gaston de Clermont wrote:Tegan- If someone is really bold (i.e. stupid) enough to try and skilled enough to take me out wearing just greaves and sabatons, they'll get some serious booty. I suspect they'll also get a bit hurt in the attempt. I guess there's some glory in that folly. Just please don't make me explain what happened to your mom.

What are the engagement rules for The Deed?
And has there been a final ruling on my appeal to allow ballista?

Seriously though, someday I'd love to play in this. Slowly, slowly a kit is being assembled. I'm very much looking forward to showing up at local events and having no one recognize me.

Helmet: check (mostly - need to make the liner and figure out an aventail)
Body: check (full plastic body, also a steel body if I ever get around to making a jupon and adding something to cover my hip points)
Legs: check (stainless and not fully period but better than what I currently wear on my legs)
Sabatons: check
Greave: check (stainless, not cased)
Shoulders: check (stainless and not fully period but I have them)

Vaguely disheartening that the only "check" with no reservations is for sabatons.

-T
(Maybe you'll have better luck explaining things than I've had. I was trying to convince Megan to come to Pennsic this year and she was concerned that she would get attacked while walking down the street.)

I hope you can make it down, Max. That video you posted recently showed you really had my back in that 2nd CotT fight.

I'm so looking forward to fighting you Nissan. You made a big early impression on me when I was going to practices in Jersey.

Tegan- Tell her my parents have been to Pennsic. Really you're surrounded by thousands of guys who want to rescue damsels in distress. There are certainly some odd things that go on in the privacy of people's tents, but it's one of the most lawful gatherings on the planet.
If you wear a maile hauburgeon, hips aren't worth throwing at in these fights. Only head shots really count for much. Pauldrons were worn by some folks in this time period, though there are a lot of harnesses where it's not clear if they wore anything besides the avantail and fabric on the shoulders. That's worked fine for me for years. If you're looking to do the Combat of the 30 at Pennsic, the target time period is early enough that shynbalds (frontal greaves) are very reasonable. I haven't done a detailed study, but they may have been more common than cased greaves at that time. By the 1380s The Deed is set in, the effigies we see indicate that cased greaves are the norm.

I personally don't think stainless steel is that big an issue. There are some armourers who make relatively flat, and extremely shiny stainless armour that you can spot for what it is from across the field. I'd like to see us do better than that. But it's not the norm in these contests. If it's reasonably well shaped and not buffed to a high chrome old school Battlestar Galactica sort of shine it doesn't bother me. If you have a piece that looks like that a few minutes with some fine steel wool and a little oil will take the edge off.

I repeat this often because it means a lot to me: "Qui le plus fait, mieux vault."- Geoffroi de Charny. He who does more is more worthy. It's good to get out on the field and fight. It's better to do so in a good harness. It's even better to travel far and wide, kicking massive ass in a great kit. We can't all be as amazing as Nissan, but we can make improvements and push ourselves farther to be more worthy.

Thanks, Gaston. If I say I got your back, I take that EXCEEDINGLY seriously -- and if we fight together, then I've got your back.

My first few wars I was tasked with watching the back of Duke Akbar ibn Murad (my Grand-Knight) and my Father, Duke Siegfried -- both of whom had an annoying tendency to teleport from one point to a distant point where there might be fighting... so I had to learn how to keep up with the teleporters.

It was an honor to stand with you.

Max Von Halstern

I wanna watch this.

Hmm...wonder if I can get my kit together and finished by March...

It was an honor to fight with you too, Max. AvM- totally, come and watch. There are some good videos of The Deed and The Combat of the 30 on Youtube.
Keegan- it's possible. You're a good armourer. I strongly recommend getting it together earlier so you can get several practices in the full kit. I'd wager that folks on the field of a typical serious deed of arms like these average 15 years in harness. Most of them aren't primarily pole arm fighters, and most don't fight in that exact kit all the time. But it's a scary field all the same. I'm happy to help you out with the armouring and the fighting parts to this.

Gaston de Clermont wrote:I'd wager that folks on the field of a typical serious deed of arms like these average 15 years in harness.

You know what that means, don't you Keegan?
They are old and slow.
You'll wipe the floor with them.
*nod*

-Tegan
(not smirking. definitely not smirking)

Gaston, thank you very kindly; I appreciate the offer, and will certainly not hesitate to take you up on it as I can. Fifteen years, huh? Should make for some fun and painful memories, then.

Tegan, why do you wish doom upon me? Other than the hilarious videos that will result, that is.

You two are like the god Janus...

Tegan's a guy who will hold your beer while you do something stupid, and make sure you get home safe. It's not quite schadenfreude that he exhibits, it's a mirthful glee he derives from his friends doing something moderately painful or dumb. Considering how often our friends get bruised we all have some of that.

Gaston de Clermont wrote:Tegan's a guy who will hold your beer while you do something stupid, and make sure you get home safe. It's not quite schadenfreude that he exhibits, it's a mirthful glee he derives from his friends doing something moderately painful or dumb. Considering how often our friends get bruised we all have some of that.

That is...not an unfair description.

But there's a service aspect to it too. It's nice to have someone there who can explain your injuries come morning. And I make sure to do my share of the painful/dumb stuff so the scales are balanced.

-T

Santa came through. I now have cased greaves!

Awesome! Which side are you fighting on, Guy?

I'm thinking of making some nice 14th century glass cups as ransoms. They'd be the kind of conversation piece that would be a lot of fun when you're drinking with your buddies.
"Where'd you get the cool glass?"
"Oh, this? I beat the hell out of the captain of the French side in The Deed at Gulf War and took it from him."
You know you want that story. You only have a chance at it with cased greaves, sabatons, and a team that can beat me. Get cracking.

French, as always:)

I have to start on some ransoms also.

I intend on being at Gulf Wars again this year though I may have to fly again to make it work.

As a noble Scotsman I cannot fight on the English side.

To get this thread back on track...

About appearance on the field I see an aspect of many people's kits that is missed time and time again. The soft kit. Not enough people are wearing chausse and braise under their leg harnesses. I also see a lot of people not wearing enough layers to create a truly medieval look and some of the outer garments (jupons, lentners, cyclase's) are not what I feel are accurate and do not create the right look as well.

Not trying to sound too harsh but that is my take on things that are missing in regards to appearance.

I for one will not be wearing fully enclosed greaves again this year as my greaves, nor any greaves, will fit around the massive knee brace I now must wear to be able to fight.

To that end I wore an almost entirely new kit at the CotT at this last Pennsic that was based on 1350's era effigies. I wanted to get my mid 14th c kit done for a few years and my knee surgery and the knee brace required afterward was the impetus to get it done. I will be bringing that kit to GW this year specifically for The Deed. I hope none are offended that I will wear it for a 3rd qtr of the 14th c deed but if they do they can address me on the field.

Cheers,

Gaston raises a lot of good points about the typical upper-end 14th century kit in the SCA. The overall essence is there, but the details lack (not only by date but also by professed region of origin). There are enough resources out there to really nail down the look of a kit to a pretty specific time and place. One thought I would add - it isn't just about the proper gear, its also about wearing it right. Correct sizing, proportions, and cuts (both for soft and hard pieces) make for a silhouette that matches what we see in art, and, at least to me, is a crucial aspect.

Is The Deed at Gulf Wars a specifically late-14th? I'm not aware of the details. That war may be in the cards for me this year.

Wish I could make it; look forward to seeing pictures of this in March.

The Deed that ours is based on was originally intended to happen in 1387, so Galfrid, your harness would fit in well. Gulf is a pretty darn cool war. The fighting is great, the people are friendly, and there are some phenomenal and unique structures like The Green Dragon, and the long house which make it a particularly memorable war.

In the spirit of Charny- he who does more is more worthy. You're doing well if you come to the field armed and armoured with the minimums expectations for the fight. You must have a harness appropriate to the era (give or take a couple generations, so a 1350 kit is OK), which must include greaves of some sort, and bascinets must have avantails. A well done great helm would be awesome. We tend to see more of those in the Combat of the 30 than in The Deed. Some of that is due to the date target, and some is local culture. Anyway- if you do all the basics and add key things like sabatons, a plaque belt, braies and chauses, a heraldic jupon etc, you're more worthy. They are key components that we see in the effigies of the era. If you're missing them, it's like trying to portray Fonzie without his white T shirt. To Galfrid's point, the cut, the fit, and the exact shape of each piece is very important. Greaves weren't just tubes, they followed the curves of your shins and calves. Jupons are fitted to give you an hourglass form. So if you have all of the components, they fit well, they're shaped right, they're well maintained, and you kick lots of ass in them, you're the Chuck Norris of this art, you're the most worthy. Those are the guys I most want to see on my team, and the guys I most want to fight.

So braies and chauses- Yes that's what we should be wearing under our armour. I'm generally in agreement that getting the soft kit right is an important foundation to the rest of the kit. By 1387, and I'll extend that a few decades earlier- braies mostly weren't seen. You'll see them when peasants are working the fields, when there's an execution to be done, and in the rare instance when a man at arms falls down with their crotch toward the viewer. I admit I dress like an agro-peasant sometimes when it's just too darn hot, and sometimes you'll see my braies when I don't sit up straight. Or when I simply must behead someone. But they're kind of like modern boxers- worn, not generally visible, and it's not a huge deal if folks see them, but it's not all that classy.

What can you do to make this look correct? Wear your outer arming clothes so they come down past the braies. Make your chauses fitted well up the thigh so the braies tuck into them and don't flap around like a diaper. You can dye your braies the same color as your chauses so it's less noticeable. You can't really wear a short 15th century hemline with 14th century underwear and make it look right. By the end of the 14th century, the braies and chauses end up looking more like the 15th century ones, so you can wear that style which comes up higher, and is easier to hide.