{sca} awards as a lure.

[CiaranBlackrune]

After watching the awards system in Caid for a few years now, seeing people get awards, seeing peopel being passed over for awards for many many reasons I have come to one conclusion... Well, I have come to many conclusions actually, but the main one is: Don't put stock in any awards.

Some crowns do check to see that the person has earned the award. And some crowns just like to hand out awards and find any reason to do so. And then some awards, like the cresent sword, mean little more than, "Great! You finally got new fighting clothes!" In other words, it don't mean much.

Don't think about awards, it's not healthy for you.

[brewer]

Most Laurels are perfectly OK with people who aspire to be Laurels. The problem is, many Laurels have encountered people who feel *entitled* to be Laurels. And when you're a Laurel, there's not so much you can do with a person like this-- unless your interpersonal skills are really amazing, you may be stuck with giving them scores on some A&S competition project that they didn't expect, and then watching them cry. The Laurels as a group are defensive about the stereotype of mean Laurels who make people cry, and would like to skip the whole ordeal, so they make pre-emptive strikes against entitlement, which bleed over.

Must be a locality thing, or I'm mis-identifying something here on the East Coast. Yes, I've spoken to Laurels who don't have a problem with aspiration. There are still quite a few, in my experience, who do, and they comprise the statistical majority of the Laurels with whom I've spoken/eavesdropped* about this issue.

The entitlement issue is immense, and not confined to 'the A&S track'.

As for scores in competitions, there's a reason why I no longer judge: People seem to only want you to gush about how awesome their widget is. They don't want even the gentlest of feedback, much less honest judging. Thus I see no further point in the exercise.

(who thinks Derian is pretty cool, herself)

I think Derian is the kitten's pyjamas.

Bob

* Before anyone gets their knickers in a wad about confidentiality, these were open conversations in public places.

[Cap'n Atli]

I have a parallel experience in some blacksmithing contests. I don't usually enter unless I have what I consider a "brilliant" concept; but then the same people seem to win over and over (hmm, former and current guild officers, mostly), and I got discouraged. But then, I looked at the other "losers" and their concepts, workmanship and execution, which were far better than mine (or the winners). Some of these "losers" are just bloody brilliant! So, these days, I'll enter the contests for fun, or if it’s useful or something I’ve been meaning to make (and if I have the time, and it’s not too much trouble); but I'm never going to break my back again for the foolishness involved.

Game = candle? You always need to ask yourself that question.

[Gaston de Clermont]

A few thoughts-
Judging A&S competitions is really hard. Many contestants, myself included, have a hard time separating their personal self worth from that of their creation, most particularly if they're quite proud of it. It does represent hours of their life. It's a bit like their baby. So even if an objective observer can tell it's not the cutest bugger in the show, the creator has a hard time hearing it, even when they're quite aware of the dozens of flaws it contains. As a judge you have to find ways of praising the piece, encouraging continued learning and growth, and still giving useful feedback. This takes time and tact, which can both be difficult to come by during a busy day, and the scant space in a judging form. It's the responsibility of the judge to find that time and cushion any perceived blows to a reasonable degree so the message can be heard. 1:1 conversations can help a lot. Just bear in mind your scores and notes may be what the artist obsesses over.

Folks feeling like they deserve an award, especially a peerage, can be distasteful to many people. As for hungering for one, I think that's pretty normal. The confusion on the matter, which many peers have too, comes from the idea that many candidates reach a sort of inner peace with the peerage after a critical point in their development. They realize that the formal recognition doesn't matter that much to them any more. They're doing something they love, and the people around them think they're as good as the peers, so they get the same level of respect from anyone who knows them. That inner peace happened for me for both of my peerages (knight and laurel), and it does for many people. So it's assumed that if someone acts like they really want the peerage, they're not ready yet. Read that again. It sounds kind of stupid, no? Because it can be complete bull. It depends on how the person understands the imperfections of the award system, how goal oriented they are, and their personality. I know guys who have worn white belts for close to a decade who still act like they're desperate to prove themselves. They're good knights. It's just how they're wired.

As for feeling entitled, I've been there too. I had an old school armouring laurel tell me years ago, before I'd built much reknown for my metal working skills here, that he felt I was a grant level armourer. (Our kingdom has AoA level awards, then grants, then peerages). I was all proud of my accomplishment. At an event soon after I was called into court, and I was completely expecting to get that grant level award. Instead, I was given another AoA level arts award. It was kind, thoughtful, in retrospect it was just about on target, and I honestly felt cheated. I hid my feelings, I think, but I was an ungrateful little douche about it on the inside. I felt entitled, like I deserved a higher award. Fortunately I was (just barely) smart enough not to mouth off about this stuff before or after the award was given. Well, until now, I guess.

We sometimes screw our friends over pretty hard with this though- we tell them how awesome they are, and how we think they deserve all kinds of amazing awards. They believe us, they feel entitled, and they can either alienate others who may disagree about how deserving they are, or feel they're "uppity," or they'll get bent out of shape like I did when what they get isn't what they expect.

For a guy like me, in the inner circle of the SCA, constantly on the fast track for awards because of who I'm friends with and what I do, and hip to how the system works, things have worked out just fine despite some hiccups that are as much a function of my own shortcomings as anything else. For folks on the fringes of things who don't have those advantages, it's a system that seems pretty heartless and unfair despite the honest best efforts of the people involved. If they don't have much positive stuff going on for them outside the SCA, getting passed over, or getting a bad judge in a competition can really hurt. It's rough on younger folks who are used to getting a trophy for showing up to the game, and constant praise from their parents. I think it's part of our job to reach out to them. Help our crowns recognize them. Help them understand how and why things are going on. Set reasonable expectations- peerages are sort of like masters degrees. Most folks don't get them in less than 6 years of hard and steady work, and only then if they're also talented. I played my ass off for 3 years before I got my AoA. Had a great time doing it too. New folks have to hear that.

[Katrine Klein]

I've only recently taken over as my local shire's presuivant, but I've already seen the award system at work. My shire held an event just a few weekends ago and the crown was in attendance. This was our big chance to get people in the area awards that they deserved years prior. Even though I hounded the group to get their award choices in and to give me a heads up, I only had two suggestions that really deserved the awards they were being put in for. Instead of just nodding, putting in my pull for them, and moving on, I harrassed half my barony to write them in. Yah want to know what happened? Not only did both of them get their awards, but one (our barional MOAS) was named "MOAS Champion of the Event"! If you want someone to get an award, put their name in! And don't just be the only one to put their name in, make sure other people put their name in as well!

On the flip side, I have seen people who think themselves to be the best thing since sliced bread. We've got one guy in my local barony who is trying to two year track knighthood, knightless. Amazing fighter, has potential, but has run his mouth so hard that he's gonna blacklist himself. Even when to far to comment that in the 15 years he had been in SCA, he didn't get his AOA til this past year when he started playing with another group. Little did he know that his local persuivant was going to put him in for one when she found out he didn't have an AOA. It is a perfect example of someone who is making awards a means to an end, instead of accepting it as a 'thank you' from the populous or crown.

[James B.]

Oi what a mine field topic. As in normal life SCA awards are not always fair. Some people get them and don't deserve them. Some people have talent and go unnoticed. Most people get awards in a somewhat timely manor.

Yes there is favoritism and back stabbing; but that is not the majority of cases.

There are people who are out to stop certain people from gaining an award and there are also people who don't have an award who think they deserve it when they don't Again this is not the majority of cases.

Does the bar raise? Of coarse it does or everyone would have every award in a few years; knowledge keeps expanding and one persons laurel worthy project becomes the common made item 5 years later. There are laurels in butted chainmail making from the 70s; if that is all it took there are about a million potential laurels in the USA today.

The system is as flawed as humans are, there is no way to change that.

[Gaston de Clermont]

I think it's good that the bar has raised, within certain limits. It has to be a level of proficiency that folks can achieve within a time frame that's still motivational. If you have to be at the forge 8 hours a day making innovative items for 20 years before anyone notices, it's quite reasonable to find something different to do with your time. It's also not inspirational if you can get a laurel in a craft you can master in a week.

[Derian le Breton]

As for scores in competitions, there's a reason why I no longer judge: People seem to only want you to gush about how awesome their widget is. They don't want even the gentlest of feedback, much less honest judging. Thus I see no further point in the exercise.

This makes me sad. I found that A&S competitions were one of the few "crucibles" in which the fluff could be burned away, and honest constructive criticisms given. Outside of competitions it's hard to get much beyond "Oooh, shiny!", especially for a weird art. I do believe that some competition formats are better than others (with "populace choice" or "laurels choice" being essentially worthless). You've heard the soapbox speech about judge/entrant interaction, so I'll skip it this time.

I've seen entrants with the whole range of attitudes. Of course, I've seen (and experienced) bad judges too.

(who thinks Derian is pretty cool, herself)

I think Derian is the kitten's pyjamas.

Aww, thanks folks. You're both pretty awesome in my book.

-Derian.

[brewer]

This makes me sad. I found that A&S competitions were one of the few "crucibles" in which the fluff could be burned away, and honest constructive criticisms given.

I think there's some stuff at play here which I'm loath to discuss except in person, as Teh Intarwebz breeds misunderstanding. Next time we're at the same event - Gulf Wars? Pennsic? - come to the shop and remind me, and I'll bore you beyond imagining.

Of course, I've seen (and experienced) bad judges too.

Holy hell, yeah! I ought to know - I've been one!

Cheers,

Bob

[Gaston de Clermont]

Being a good judge is really hard. At the very least it requires a lot of time and focus, which judges don't always have in abundance. I'd be happy to chat about this stuff over a beer at Gulf Wars if the offer's open.

[maxntropy]

There is also the issue of the completely "goal oriented" person. They get into the game, see a goal, attain said goal...then what? They have no reason to stay in the game now that they have attained their goal, as the game was just a construct where the goal existed. They move on.

I have seen plenty of bad reasons to give awards, and I've seen plenty of good reasons that went astray. I would much rather see someone deserving be recognized, only to have them drop for some reason, than to give a cookie to someone as some sort of lure.

In martial arts, the goal is infinite progress in improvement of one's art.

I believe we may have thus gone astray by emphasizing the award structure of our social re-enactment game as a goal over the inherent joy and infinite progress in pursuit of the activities themselves. Thus, we have displaced a goal of being ever-more Chivalric with one of getting knighted.

As Jan has noted, this has dramatically negative consequences for those of us who are extremely goal-oriented individuals as once such goals are achieved, the meaning in the activity has ended.

My $.02.

Max Von Halstern

[maxntropy]

Oi what a mine field topic. As in normal life SCA awards are not always fair. Some people get them and don't deserve them. Some people have talent and go unnoticed. Most people get awards in a somewhat timely manor.

Hmmm... I'm not sure those were always 100% your sentiment, there, buck. I think that "somewhat" was not always there.

Happy Birthday, James!

Max Von Halstern