The Armour Archive

Not at all. I want him to do what I do.. take pride in _your_ setup, and stop worrying about the guy next door.

If you want juried, period encampments, there are a few subgroups within the SCA that do that.. and plenty outside the SCA who also do that. But, you might just find that some of the "conveniences" you have but don't notice fail to pass _their_ muster.

brewer wrote:So you want him to go away? Seems counterproductive.

I hope he doesn't. But trying to change the SCA will leave you sorry, sad, and cynical. Accept it for what it is.

Or even if you have a perfect set up, there will be naked Celts next door. Outside of the SCA.

Naked is historical for any time period. Now some of the tatoos might have to be airbrushed out and maybe some quick liposuction, but nudity is historical.

-Aaron

you know, Aaron.. we get you are a physical health junkie, and mad concerned about your own weight. Could you try to keep the fat-hater from leaking through into your posts?

OK, I'll put that on a diet.

I wouldn't look good naked either BTW. It is that the picture we have of "then" doesn't match the "now" all the time.

Aaron wrote:OK, I'll put that on a diet.

I wouldn't look good naked either BTW. It is that the picture we have of "then" doesn't match the "now" all the time.

And the TV portrayal of the 50's matches reality, right?

"the picture" you have of then is not all inclusive. You are basing your view of everyone who lived based on a single book of family photos, in effect.

Maeryk's just saying that's something the SCA has a tradition of closing its eyes to, while nonetheless appreciating the period pavilions' appreciating prevalence, year over year.

That's not a hill the Society is willing to fight up yet.

Konstantin the Red wrote:Maeryk's just saying that's something the SCA has a tradition of closing its eyes to, while nonetheless appreciating the period pavilions' appreciating prevalence, year over year.

That's not a hill the Society is willing to fight up yet.

I'll bet that for the first 5 years of the SCA's existance, there was not more than.. two period pavilions in existance, let alone at "every event".

We are what we are. We have grown from what we started as. that said, aside from the battlefield (and that's only cause certain regents and marshals have a bug up their ass), we don't much give a shit what you look like. The wording is "an attempt". Not "a reasonable attempt".. and even that only applies in the central area of an event.

Look great.. you will lead by example. But you cannot make others live by rules that don't exist. No matter how much you try.

If the group agrees to it, put the modern tents in one area, the period in another. Let folks know this is what the camp does.

As far as the "Coleman chair in the period tent thing" - I make sure I have pleanty of seating for visitors under my shade. Rarely is a problem.

I tend to pack my tools and cooking gear in stout wooden boxes that can be sat on even by a pair of stout Dukes! a simple cloth throw covers the less medieval ones well allowing non-jarring seating.

Our Pennsic rule used to be: every tent needed one chair per occupant plus one extra for guests and the guest chairs were used communally.

As for weight---well I would pass for a well to do renaissance Dutch Burgher! Unfortunately I'm pre Y1K, sigh.

Might not be perfectly "period" but I think it looks fairly decent...



You can't see the cooler and the coleman bag chair inside. Eventually I'll have more period boxes, chairs, etc...but for now...we try to keep the mundane stuff hidden.

Like earth pimple (nylon mundane tent) behind these...which you can't see.

Go join a group that cares what you camp in. The SCA doesn't.[/quote]

wow, after 12 years in the SCA even, join another group. Perhaps it is this type of mindset that is why the SCA turns a blind eye to ruining the appearance of things. Well, since I have the 12 years invested its really not an option since there are some people who still care what things look like. My question was to ask for ideas so I guess I left myself open for "Join a group that cares what you camp in"

Thanks for the input.

luther1969 wrote:Go join a group that cares what you camp in. The SCA doesn't.

wow, after 12 years in the SCA even, join another group. Perhaps it is this type of mindset that is why the SCA turns a blind eye to ruining the appearance of things. Well, since I have the 12 years invested its really not an option since there are some people who still care what things look like. My question was to ask for ideas so I guess I left myself open for "Join a group that cares what you camp in"

Thanks for the input.[/quote]

Wow.. TWELVE WHOLE YEARS? TWELVE? Let me bow to your venerated oldbie-ness.

Like I said.. do your best with what you have, and don't assume everyone else has the same. Whether it be time, money, interest, etc. I spend a _lot_ of time in my camp at events. Hence, my camp looks fecking amazing. Others never see their tent in daylight, and mostly see only the inside, through their eyelids. I have no call or power to make them make their camp look as great as mine, as that is not the focus of their portion of the hobby.

It's that simple. There's no requirement to use period anything in camps, from an SCA-wide standpoint. I doubt there ever will be. Asking how you can "make" people do that is just being arsish. You can't. That's not the group you joined or spent TWELVE WHOLE YEARS playing in.

yeah, 12 whole years. Glad you have a grand camp. I`m sure its amazing. My question was posted to seek ideas not to change society policy or the mindset of ancient veterans such as yourself. As I said, thanks for the input. My little voice inside said not to bother posting for ideas but it wasn`t listened to. I wish to thank those who did offer some good ideas and insight into the question and will let you all get back to what you were doing before I invaded your forum.
Best of luck

Maeryk wrote:
Hence, my camp looks fecking amazing.

Except for the part where Maeryk is wearing tights all over the place.

Charlotte J wrote:

Maeryk wrote:
Hence, my camp looks fecking amazing.

Except for the part where Maeryk is wearing tights all over the place.

you know you love it.

Talk to everyone you are going to camp with.
Ask them what THEY think.
Do what the majority wants.

The group I camp with, the modern tents AGREED that the period tents up front was a good idea.


.

Tired of looking at others non period encampments? Be such an inspiration to others that they too will be motivated to gather period gear. But you also need to remember... There will always be newbies and people with very low budgets.

Now heres an idea... Maybe you can get a small living history event going where only period gear is allowed. Gets your period correctness experience fix, and helps allow you be more accepting of seeing non period encampments at large events.

Just an idea I myself is searching for a lh group to do a couple events with on occasion. Doing both sca and lh has filled a lot of wants in experiences, but you might not necessarily get everything you want in one place.

Good point, Corey. Another thing to keep in mind, is many events (other than the big wars, and even those you might be able to finagle) you aren't "locked into" camping with anyone you don't want to. So, when you know you are going to Stabbing of the Stout, for example, which is a camping event, get together with others who are like-minded in "encampment" ideas, and camp with them. Tell the nylon weenies to sod off.. (or, like we do, put their tents INSIDE of a bigger canvas one.. it's what we do for the girls.. they get earth pimples inside our Marquis.. they have their own "rooms", their bedding stays nice and dry, and we can hear them when they get up in the night.. the zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzipppppppppppppppp is unmistakable), and you can TRULY lead by example.

You will get flack though. I'll warn you right now.. nothing gets you badmouthed in the SCA like striving, by your own hand, to look better. For some reason, people who cannot be arsed to do it themselves take it as a personal affront that you eschew bag chairs and tie died pirate skull sheet walls, and instead strive to get as close as modernly possible (cause yeah, Panther looks nice, but if it has side poles, it's prolly not period) to "period". And they can get NASTY about it.

Especially when you walk around tossing out comments about "Well, it looks great here! Except for that nylon! THat looks like crap!" etc.

Maeryk wrote: You will get flack though. I'll warn you right now.. nothing gets you badmouthed in the SCA like striving, by your own hand, to look better. For some reason, people who cannot be arsed to do it themselves take it as a personal affront that you eschew bag chairs and tie died pirate skull sheet walls, and instead strive to get as close as modernly possible (cause yeah, Panther looks nice, but if it has side poles, it's prolly not period) to "period". And they can get NASTY about it.

Especially when you walk around tossing out comments about "Well, it looks great here! Except for that nylon! THat looks like crap!" etc.

This is such utter bullshit I can't stand it. The problem is not striving to have your kit or your camp look good, it's being an asshole about it. Quietly work to be a good example to others, help them along the way, and share your resources, and no sane person is going to have anything bad to say about you.

Gaston de Clermont wrote:

Maeryk wrote: You will get flack though. I'll warn you right now.. nothing gets you badmouthed in the SCA like striving, by your own hand, to look better. For some reason, people who cannot be arsed to do it themselves take it as a personal affront that you eschew bag chairs and tie died pirate skull sheet walls, and instead strive to get as close as modernly possible (cause yeah, Panther looks nice, but if it has side poles, it's prolly not period) to "period". And they can get NASTY about it.

Especially when you walk around tossing out comments about "Well, it looks great here! Except for that nylon! THat looks like crap!" etc.

This is such utter bullshit I can't stand it. The problem is not striving to have your kit or your camp look good, it's being an asshole about it. Quietly work to be a good example to others, help them along the way, and share your resources, and no sane person is going to have anything bad to say about you.

No, actually, it's not. And that's what boggled my mind as well. I got attacked for "rubbing it in people's faces" (by existing, I guess) that they couldn't "afford" stuff as nice as mine. Maybe it's only a local problem?

Dunno. but I definately got crap for looking "nicer" than other folks. Granted, it was usually from those who define "anachronism" as why they wear flashing sneakers or pink hair..

"Living well is the best Revenge"

Though telling folks who are explaining that they couldn't afford a period camp like yours that your set up cost 1/2 of what theirs did ranks a close second! (I bought my canvas tent third hand for US$40 over 25 years ago, about every decade I have to do a repair on it by hand while watching a movie at home...)

Yup. and I put my camp together over a decade or more.

My first Pennsic (21) the wife and I managed to get all our stuff, including armor, out there for a week, in a 2 door hatchback Dodge Colt. Now it takes a full size SUV and a trailer, and I am _still_ leaving stuff at home I'd rather have with me.

Plus a couple hundred hours in the shop making the stuff I didn't feel like buying.. camp kitchen, trestle tables, four poster canopy bed, period chairs, and a reproduction church chest to keep things in. Yes, I bought the canvas pavilion and sun shade, but I'm not much of a seamster.

And anyone can have an X or K chair from me.. but it's going to cost you the shop rate in labor + materials + markup.. what I make for myself is a hobby, what I make for others is a business.

(And yes, they are cheaper than many you will find out there.. but you can also buy a HELL of a lot of bag chairs and fleece blankets for what I charge for a chair, too.. ).

As I said, and it wasn't meant to be snarky. It's a matter of priorities.. and everyone has different priorities. for some people (me) camp is where you can shine as far as "impression" goes. For others, the field is. (And yeah, I tried to do that, too.. thank god stainless doesn't rust.. someday that full suit will be on display, but it's unlikely it will ever be on _me_).

I guess what I'm trying like hell to get across to the OP is that the SCA is, has been, and will continue to be "DIY" in regards to how far you want to go into impressions. In other words, some of us are all natural fabrics and period stuff, and love it. Others, not so much.. they may be doing it on a shoestring, they may not be able to afford the 20K worth of vehicle required to haul a full setup, etc etc.

I knew someone who did everything modern in camp, and made some of the most gorgeous, absolutely period fiber arts ever. And I mean, from the ground up.. start with a sheep and end up with a perfect embroidered hood.. 100% hand done down to weaving the cloth. And it took them YEARS to do it.. I choose to spend those years in my woodshop, they choose to spend them doing fine work with fabrics. I cannot fault them for putting their time and effort into a different direction than I have.

I am new to all of this, and don't hold others to do the same as me, but I have a high respect for those who do their homework and try to reproduce the feel of the middle ages. My views are A. I dont fight yet because I dont have a historicaly accurate kit ( I do not want to step on the field wearing plastic or hockey pads if I can help it, but I do not hold it against those who do), I have a lot of respect for and look up to those who do. That is what motivates me. B. I want to have a middle ages feel to my camp, when I acctualy have one, so I purchased a cheaper slant walled tent and have researched how to make things for myself, again due to the "awsomeness" of what I have seen. The populace of the SCA have motivated me.

I think this archive is worth its weight in gold when it comes to information. I thank all who allow new people to benifit from thier knowledge to make the SCA a better place.

Maeryk wrote:No, actually, it's not. And that's what boggled my mind as well. I got attacked for "rubbing it in people's faces" (by existing, I guess) that they couldn't "afford" stuff as nice as mine. Maybe it's only a local problem?

Dunno. but I definately got crap for looking "nicer" than other folks. Granted, it was usually from those who define "anachronism" as why they wear flashing sneakers or pink hair..

No it's not local. As I mention previously in this thread, the comment we usually get is something along the lines of "What are you doing?! Trying to make us look bad?". I was even taken to task on a blog some months ago for merely trying to explain why our group likes building period correct items and learning to use them. I gave no indication others should do the same, just explained why we enjoy it.

I have a sneaking suspicion that many of those who profess that doing it correct, "takes the fun out it" or is "too expensive" are secretly jealous. For others I imagine that it's a knee jerk reaction because they've had "period police" take them to task in the past.

And to add to what Gobae said...

I feel like if an attempt is made to block everyone elses camps from view, it is taken as snobbery (if thats even a word, but I'm going to use it anyways). What could make for a great educational/ inspirational experience has turned into jealousy for the "commoners." Just fuels the fire in my oppinion.

One thing we've done at WW is have a period encampment section. No visible Mundane equipment is allowed. It's a nice way to show off what you've been able to do.

I have no problem with modern tents being behind the more accurate tents. I don't think it's snobbery, but we should strive to make the SCA look better.

Robert The Stout

Sorry, I should have been a little more clear on what I meant by "block everone elses camps from view." Meaning putting barriers around your own camp to block out the rest of the camp ground from your view ("you" is being used as a general term). That could possibly be taken as snobbery by some or many. I agree that it would be nice to have a period only section, and encourage it.

Maeryk wrote:

Charlotte J wrote:

Maeryk wrote:
Hence, my camp looks fecking amazing.

Except for the part where Maeryk is wearing tights all over the place.

you know you love it.

Ooh, baby!

With respect to people getting upset at you for your camp looking nice, have you considered that maybe you come across as more in people's faces than you mean to? I'm not trying to be snarky, but I think that *you think* you're being matter of fact sometimes, when others think that you're being confrontational.

I've run into people who complain about people looking good in a general sense, but rarely do they complain to me personally about it.

Charlotte J wrote:

Maeryk wrote:

Charlotte J wrote:
Except for the part where Maeryk is wearing tights all over the place.

you know you love it.

Ooh, baby!

With respect to people getting upset at you for your camp looking nice, have you considered that maybe you come across as more in people's faces than you mean to? I'm not trying to be snarky, but I think that *you think* you're being matter of fact sometimes, when others think that you're being confrontational.

I've run into people who complain about people looking good in a general sense, but rarely do they complain to me personally about it.

I suppose that's possible.. but it's not like I'm a lone jewel in the desert in that camp, either.. we are _mostly_ (actually all) canvas and "houses" the last several years I've been there. I've been happy to tell people how to make (or get) the stuff I have when they ask, but I don't (to my knowledge or memory) ever tell anyone they _have_ to or _should_.

*shrug*

Charlotte J wrote:With respect to people getting upset at you for your camp looking nice, have you considered that maybe you come across as more in people's faces than you mean to? I'm not trying to be snarky, but I think that *you think* you're being matter of fact sometimes, when others think that you're being confrontational.

I've run into people who complain about people looking good in a general sense, but rarely do they complain to me personally about it.

Sure, that's entirely possible. Communicating what, and why you like to do things a certain way is subject to the all the pitfalls of communicating with strangers. But when you're just going about your daily camp chores and someone approaches you of their own volition and tells you that you're making the rest of the them look bad that's another thing.

Gobae wrote: But when you're just going about your daily camp chores and someone approaches you of their own volition and tells you that you're making the rest of the them look bad that's another thing.

Are we saying that's really what's happening, and that they're honestly mad? Are we sure their reaction isn't a version of saying "That armour is awful. Send it to me for disposal?"

It seems like the best foil to "You're making us look bad!" is, "Swing by my shop, and I'll show you how you can make this stuff too!"

Gaston de Clermont wrote:Are we saying that's really what's happening, and that they're honestly mad? Are we sure their reaction isn't a version of saying "That armour is awful. Send it to me for disposal?"

It seems like the best foil to "You're making us look bad!" is, "Swing by my shop, and I'll show you how you can make this stuff too!"

This happened a total of 6 or 7 times at the two day event I was at. Of those, 3 were honestly "distressed", 2 I couldn't determine their meaning, and the other 1 or 2 were honestly joking. With the 5 that weren't joking I did just what you suggested, I showed them how easy it was. Of those 5, one was surprised and pleased to learn how easy it was, 2 had issues that precluded them from giving it a shot ("My wife wouldn't sleep in something like that", "I have a medical condition and need X") and the last 2 just complained about no time/money.

Anyway, my points are this; if you can't/won't make your camp better, fine that's your choice and I'm sure you've got reasons. But why complain about others who are making things better? Second, when I go to the Living History Assn Timeline, the comments are "Nice job", "Looks like you've put a bit of work into that", NOT "Quit making us look bad".

This may sound sort of self evident, but these folks aren't really complaining about your gear, they're complaining about how lame their gear looks in comparison to yours. They may even be pissed off, but not at you as much as they are at themselves, and they're griping to you about it.

We may be able to pick at the culture we've created in the SCA so folks react more like the living history guys do. How we phrase our comments even here on the archive has an effect on how others express themselves.