The Armour Archive

Can anyone point me to a medieval original, effigy or example in a painting or book of a helm like this one?

I believe there is on in the Luttrell Psalter

http://www.threegoldbees.com/images/sto ... salter.jpg

That looks more like a sugarloaf than my picture.

The period would be the transitional from sugarloaf to bascinet... 1st quarter of the 14th century

Ralph Lord Stanford 1347

http://www.gothiceye.com/popup.asp?Ref=KN036

Glaukos the Athenian wrote:Ralph Lord Stanford 1347

http://www.gothiceye.com/popup.asp?Ref=KN036

Do you have a larger picture of this effigy?

I have been looking since I posted it....

The problem is that you seem to have a bascinet with an unusual visor. The only period that would match would be this, so I am searching effigies and brasses.... let me see what I can do

even bigger

http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/20 ... 0%2079.jpg

that's cool, but I am still hoping for something more like the helm in the pictures.

Some here http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=8668

Search on "shovel face bascinet" -- seems legit, if a rare type.

This exact visor design looks like a fantasy to me.

Here is one sort of close: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/50/ (concave bottom edges, continuous eyeslot, backpoint)
Note that it appears quite small - this is pretty standard for all nearly all raised visor depictions. The same visor drawn closed on a helm nearby is always the proper size in other examples.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=147413

I'll look for something closer when I get home, be sure and click on Len Parker's Russian link.

I'm still looking. It's the combination attached aventail with the straight cut upper and lower visor that's hard to match.
I did find some really interesting 14thc. visors
http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=897
http://militum-xristi.flybb.ru/topic45.html The Gdansk visor is definitely unique, if that drawing is legit.

The closet source I can think of would be the Romance of Alexander MS Bodl 264- fol 10-7 has something similar. Good Hi Res pictures here.

http://image.ox.ac.uk/list?collection=bodleian

There are visors depicted in the following that may be similar in shape?

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/ab-urbe ... -269/2137/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/ab-urbe ... -272/2149/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/ab-urbe ... -268/2125/

Also perhaps here?

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/histoir ... -a-16/167/

This type of helmet or ones like it are rather common during the first half of the 14th. Take a look at the Taymouth Hours, Yates-Thompson 13 at the BL. It is full of helmets just like this.

http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... llID=28956

F. 12 is a good one to look at.

As far as aventails.... not usually this early though. To be honest I am not convinced this was common til the 2nd half of the 14th. I think well into the 1340s we see coifs under helmets fairly often, though by the 1330s we see the possibility of them.

There are a few things I would change if I were to use it but shape wise I'd say it is go till maybe 1360 for a Man at arms

RPM

RandallMoffett wrote:This type of helmet or ones like it are rather common during the first half of the 14th. Take a look at the Taymouth Hours, Yates-Thompson 13 at the BL. It is full of helmets just like this.

http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... llID=28956

F. 12 is a good one to look at.

As far as aventails.... not usually this early though. To be honest I am not convinced this was common til the 2nd half of the 14th. I think well into the 1340s we see coifs under helmets fairly often, though by the 1330s we see the possibility of them.

There are a few things I would change if I were to use it but shape wise I'd say it is go till maybe 1360 for a Man at arms

RPM

This one looks good...

And this one-

http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... llID=11693

These helmets appear very often. The Holkham as well has them. The 'shovel' face bascinet appears to be very much a part of martial culture in the first half of the 14th.

I think of the development more a mix of the great helm. It is moving toward much more developed or angular tops and at times having visors. I think the Sugarloaf is actually the link. It can be a full developed great helm with visor and conical, round or mid to 3/4 point back or we can look at it as a full proto-bascinet. In the Queen Mary Psalter there is little question that some of the helmets there are impossible to lodge firmly in either camp.

Queen Mary Psalter, c.1300-1315

http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... llID=53961
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... llID=53770
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... llID=53892

Angular top Great Helm
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... llID=53747
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... llID=53946
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... llID=53777

More or less fully developed open face bascinet
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... llID=53925

There are likely scores, maybe dozens more but some things to look at.

RPM