ancient greek belts

[zippy]

I am looking for more info on ancient greek belts, Spartan or Macedonian. I can find plenty of clothing information, but all the info I find is clothing and no belts. (plenty of sandals and fibula) And some references to Hippolytes Belt, but no clear pictures. Any info would help.

[Matthew Amt]

I am looking for more info on ancient greek belts, Spartan or Macedonian. I can find plenty of clothing information, but all the info I find is clothing and no belts. (plenty of sandals and fibula) And some references to Hippolytes Belt, but no clear pictures. Any info would help.

For Classical Greek or Macedonian, pretty much all I've seen is a simple tie belt or cord for the chiton (tunic), and sometimes not even that. There's no sign of any substantial leather belt with a buckle or clasp. The sword was carried on a shoulder baldric. So it's really simple, but maybe not what you were hoping to find!

Matthew

[Gerhard von Liebau]

As Matt said, a tied belt is most appropriate. Tablet woven belts and rope belts are fairly popular among Greek reenactors. I've worn both with my exomis at events and it's very nice to have the soft material around the bunched up fabric to prevent friction.

-Gerhard

[zippy]

Still a lot of questions, even a simple tie of rope belt doesnt give a lot to go on. I could tablet weave one, but what would be an appropriate pattern? Or material for the weaving? Thanks for the answers so far, please keep them coming.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Linen or wool, woven with generic geometric patterns popular in Greek art, should suffice fine. Pottery depictions show belts holding up the chiton/exomis on male figures as being roughly between 2-4 finger lengths in width, with the narrower belts more common on earlier figures. Generally no decorative elements are discernible, which is understandable... The pot maker had enough detail to worry about with the subject matter!

No original belts survive from ancient Greece, so the pottery depictions are about as much as we can go by, as well as stipulation based on our general understanding of material culture in Greece. What I described above is probably about as detailed as we're gonna' get.

-Gerhard

[Baron Alcyoneus]

I am looking for more info on ancient greek belts, Spartan or Macedonian. I can find plenty of clothing information, but all the info I find is clothing and no belts. (plenty of sandals and fibula) And some references to Hippolytes Belt, but no clear pictures. Any info would help.

For Classical Greek or Macedonian, pretty much all I've seen is a simple tie belt or cord for the chiton (tunic), and sometimes not even that. There's no sign of any substantial leather belt with a buckle or clasp. The sword was carried on a shoulder baldric. So it's really simple, but maybe not what you were hoping to find!

Matthew

This is actually of Darius, in Susa:
http://www.livius.org/a/iran/susa/susa_ ... s_belt.jpg
http://www.livius.org/su-sz/susa/susa_s ... arius.html

The "belt" here seems to be laced on, and the skirt underneath continuous, but I can't blow it up with enough detail to be sure.

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/interactiv ... re_war.htm

Samnite (Italian peninsula)



An impression of a Samnite warrior
of the 3rd century BC
Museo della Civilta,Rome
(similar belts still exist)

Etruscan

Reproduction garb of an Etruscan warrior on display at the Colosseum Museum in Rome, Italy. Included are a helmet, breast plate, belt, and sword.


Urn of Vel Tities Vesis (Etruscan, Perugia)


Etruscan urn: warrior ("belt" with shoulder straps?)


Etruscan urn: headless warrior


Athenian Black Figure votive plate


http://www.theoi.com/



I've included Etruscan bits because A. I like Etruscan, and B. With as much influence, and as many colonies as Greece had in "Italy", I find it a bit hard to completely separate the two at times.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

The Etruscan and Samnite depictions have no bearing on Greek material because there are not any bronze girdles surviving from Greece while there are hundreds from Italy; they were a purely Italian phenomenon. You'd have to go back to the Archaic period to have even an inkling of evidence for bronze girdles in Greece. Those other Etruscan pieces show sashes worn over armor, not belts. Every Greek depiction you present does not show any belt at all... Just a lot of guys wearing armor that covers any evidence of the belted chiton.

Oh, and Zippy, "Hippolyte's Belt" is a magical belt from a Herculean myth. There will be no clear pictures because it wasn't a real belt.

-Gerhard

[Edward MacTavish]

Gerhard, In one of the Ancient Warfare magazines there was a bronze girdle they found in what they believe was a Greek mercenary's grave. I know they seem to be an Italian thing but I have always wondered why they never crossed the seas. Other aspects of armour and clothing did. When we were over there the pottery in Tarquina and Athens could not be separated by an untrained eye. Only thing I can think of is that perhaps if you could afford the girdle in Greece then you could afford a better armour.

Edward

[zippy]

oh I am aware of what Hippolyte's belt is, it's the most common reference when searching greek belts. and it screws with most of the search results

[Gerhard von Liebau]

I know they seem to be an Italian thing but I have always wondered why they never crossed the seas. Other aspects of armour and clothing did.

Edward,

Few items of material culture crossed the sea from Italy to Greece before Roman dominion over the Greek peninsula - prior to that influences were traveling in the other direction. By that time the use of bronze girdles was part of the vague past. As far as a Greek mercenary's belt goes, a man with such an occupation could have served in any number of theaters were Italian girdles were in vogue... Nevertheless, it is highly unusual for a Greek to be buried with his armament, so it stands to reason that the international flavor of this fellow, if he was Greek at all, is telling of the unique nature of the find. Do you recall where the grave site was? What other elements of the panoply were discovered and what was the cultural flavor of those elements?

As far as the use of the girdle goes in Greece, the nature of the armament makes it a moot point. The spolas and bronze cuirass were both sufficient protection for the abdomen, and the use of cavalry was next to nothing compared to in contemporary Southern Italian field armies, where cavalry flourished (at least compared to in Greece). In Italy girdles were favored in conjunction with pectoral thorax armor that left the abdomen very exposed and also allowed an ease of riding. The modes of warfare and the standard armament between the two regions, coupled with the facts that there have been hundreds of girdle finds/depictions in Italian art versus almost none whatsoever in Greece, seems to present sufficient evidence against the girdle's use in Greece in the post-archaic period. You are welcome to argue counter to the plethora of evidence in favor of unique circumstances that may have occurred (and probably did from time to time), but I'll stick by the vast majority of evidence and preach it...

It's worth noting that girdles were popular in Anatolia right up until the classical period, and many Greeks were settled there. Despite that, there is next to no evidence from Anatolian or Persian art depicting their use during or after the Classical period. They seem to have fallen out of favor in the East with the development of the conventional cuirasses used by the Persians and Greeks alike by the sixth century BCE.

-Gerhard

[Edward MacTavish]

Didn't think about the trade rout aspect.

Edward

[Gerhard von Liebau]

There's not much to think about. We have a plethora of physical evidence to help establish understanding of Mediterranean trade routes and the popular items transferred from place to place during this period - pottery and other daily accessories and many forms of Greek armament going to Italy, and very little going in the other direction. Of what we do find with an Italian flair popularized in Greece, girdles are not among those trendy items.

In any case, most of the exports from Southern Italy to Greece were foodstuffs and raw materials. On the flip side Greek manufactured goods were very sought after by Italian Greek colonists and natives alike.

And, as a caveat, I'm not trying to say no Classical/Hellenistic Greek soldier ever wore a protective girdle... It would be silly to presume so. But by far and away, a vast majority obviously did not. Generally I'm a fan of depicting a people based on what was likely to be seen in the neighborhood rather than through random, international goods that may have been seen now and again. Just my take.

-Gerhard

[Edward MacTavish]

I was actually agreeing. For the time in discussion it was mostly finished goods going out and raw goods coming in. Very similar to Colonial America. Very few "trends" traveled from the colony back to the homeland.

Edward

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Ah, indeed. My apologies. Well, now there's just a bit more explanation than was necessary, then. :p

By the way, do you have any pics of your own hoplite kit, Edward? You can PM me or hit me up on Facebook with details... Interested to see which direction you went/are going.

-Gerhard

[Edward MacTavish]

I don't actually have any pictures yet. I kind of feel like a big dumb Celt while wearing it.

Edward

[Gerhard von Liebau]

From the Hoplologia equipment page:

Zones and Zosters (Girdles and Belts)

The ancient Greek girdle came in two types—the narrow girdle, called the "zone" (ζώνη, zonē} and the wider, sash—like girdle, called the "zoster"(ζωστἐρ, zoster). Both men's and women's garments require at least one and as many as three or four girdles. A girdle in Archaic Greece is nothing more or less than a length of cord or leather used to “belt” the chiton. A woman might wear several to achieve the “bell” or “layered” effect. A man usually has just one. Please note that while buckles do exist in period, there is very little evidence for a buckled leather strap around the waist. The zoster comes into Homeric Greek as an armor belt, or a kidney belt with metal plates. By the time of Alexander, it can mean any broad girdle, even a couple of finger's wide, and could be worn by either sex.

A satisfactory zone can be made by purchasing hemp or linen cord at about $.30 a meter in any hemp shop. Giggle all you want–the stuff is excellent for all the corded edges you'll eventually sew, and by knotting the ends and then combing out the cut area to make fringe, you can make yourself a decent girdle in about two minutes. Fancier girdles can be made with coloured cord, or by weaving or braiding finer cord. A zoster requires either sash weaving (very much like a native sash, yes) or a leather belt. So far, we have very little documentation for buckles. That needs work!