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white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:59 pm
by mordreth
I finished off a belt for a friend, it was a long overdue knighting present.
Hussar Saddlery http://hussarsaddlery.com/ carries white buff leather, and will cut belt blanks to order.
Ken, the owner, is a pleasure to do business with, the blanks weren't cheap, but were worth every penny

Re: white buff / sort of SCA specific

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:52 am
by Mac
Wow! Thanks for posting this link, Mordreth.

I was not expecting a lot when I saw the name "Hussar Saddlery". I was very pleasantly surprised. These guys appear to be your "one stop shop" if you are doing the turn of the 19th C cavalry. They've got everything from saddle holsters http://hussarsaddlery.com/Holster.html to shakos http://hussarsaddlery.com/Helmets.html.

Check them out!

Mac

Re: white buff / sort of SCA specific

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:35 am
by mordreth
Getting white buff, rather than something or another painted white has been a goal of mine for a bit.

Re: white buff / sort of SCA specific

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:17 pm
by coreythompsonhm
Now the question is, whats the quality of the buff, suppleness, etc? I know quite a few of us are trying to find a good source of buff for articulation leathers.

Re: white buff / sort of SCA specific

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:02 pm
by mordreth
the quality is very good, I wouldn't say it is supple - Ken the owner is very easy to work with, and answered my emails quickly, you might want to contact him directly.

Re: white buff / sort of SCA specific

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:19 pm
by Konstantin the Red
Supple buff probably should be from belly leather -- but the belt stuff comes from the spine leather, which is denser of structure and hence stiffer too. Good for belts, which want a bit of that.

Re: white buff / sort of SCA specific

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:13 am
by mordreth
I went back into my mail file, Ken wrote
Leather is 10/11 oz. but I can thin if you wish. Almost any weight. I get it that way because I can then buff both sides
Normal belts are 5/6 oz.


I asked him to leave it as is, my piece I worked out of is fairly thick but it didn't need a lot of effort to bend it as far as I have in the attached picture ( I really need to sweep up the shop)
NB - any apparent thickness difference should be chalked up to an optical illusion caused by my camera phone
NB II - any similarities noted between my hand, and a chimpanzee's foot are caused by a lifetime of manual labor, and baton martial arts.

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:34 am
by Mac
Mordreth,

The leather looks OK, but I am a bit concerned that you say it is "not supple". If you have any left over, try "breaking" it by pulling it back and forth over something with a small radius. I use a "hatchet stake". If you don't have something similar, you might try a piece of 1/8" steel stuck in the vise. A dozen brisk pull on each side should make it pretty soft.

Mac

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:19 am
by mordreth
Hi Mac

It's everything I need. or want for belt leather, I was responding to Corey's question about suitability for use as articulation leathers.

While I'm nowhere near having your hammer and stake harem I did ok at the Lynch sale

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:06 am
by Mac
Mordreth,

I am coming at the same question from a different angle. I am asking if the leather can be made to be suitable for articulations.

If the thing these guys are selling is "the real deal", it should become supple enough for use as internal leathers by breaking it in like I said above. If that's the case, it is a thing of great importance to the armorer to be able to get this material from them.

Mac

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:19 am
by mordreth
Mac wrote:Mordreth,

I am coming at the same question from a different angle. I am asking if the leather can be made to be suitable for articulations.

If the thing these guys are selling is "the real deal", it should become supple enough for use as internal leathers by breaking it in like I said above. If that's the case, it is a thing of great importance to the armorer to be able to get this material from them.

Mac

I'll do that later this afternoon, and post the results.

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:29 pm
by Mac
mordreth wrote:
I'll do that later this afternoon, and post the results.
Thank you, Mordreth. We are all waiting anxiously! Having some way to buy buff without having to spring for an entire side of it would be really great.

One more test, though, it you would. This is going to sound weird, but bear with me. There is a leather tannage that is sometimes sold as "buff" that I have grave suspicions about. Here is how you identify it. Take a bit of the leather in question and wet it with saliva. (just lick it...no one is looking) Then, press the wet spot to your lip and feel the temperature. If is feels cool, everything is good. If it feels strangely warm, then it's the wrong stuff.

I don't know what that tannage is, but I will not put it on armor. I am afraid that it is chemically reactive and will rust the iron. Perhaps if Kel Rekuta is reading this thread he can tell us "what's what" with that.

Y'out there Kel?

Mac

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:20 pm
by Russ Mitchell
Equally curious/interested. Would reimburse shipping for a scrap (of any size, even a pinky-length, as I wouldn't really need more than that to learn from it). My "buff caftan" and my "farsetto di cordovano" currently under construction are both soft and exceptionally flexible leathers, but have TOTALLY different feels to them.

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:26 pm
by mordreth
OK here we go
@ Mac, I wet the leather down with saliva, and touched it to my lip, there was no heat. i made the mistake of not clearing my lip afterwards, it's quite bitter.
I cut the leftover section of the blank into three 1/2 inch width straps, and worked them over a stake. The fibres loosened up very quickly. The attached photos were done afterwards there was no real effort in tieing the knot, or folding it over.
The leather is @ 1/2 X 1/8 so it went as tight as it was going to go.

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:38 pm
by mordreth
@ Corey, Mac, & Russ - PM me your mailing address and I'll send over a sample section
Pls. don't worry about the postage.

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:00 pm
by Russ Mitchell
Interesting. I wonder if it's not a heavily-bated high-end alum tan. The buff leather I've seen wouldn't be leaving you with a bitter aftertaste like that. Mac? Kel?

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:40 pm
by coreythompsonhm
Im wondering the same thing Russ. It would be great if it really is buff though. Having a good source of buff strapping would be awesome. Mordreth, sending you a pm now

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:27 pm
by mordreth
proof of the pudding gents - you can make your own decisions on it

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:31 pm
by coreythompsonhm
Oh, and Mordreth, that is really a nice belt! I got too excited over possibilities of a buff supplier that I forgot to mention that :oops:

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:58 pm
by Mac
Mordreth,

Thanks for checking that out!

I don't remember any of the buff-like leathers I have had, having a bitter taste. Russ' suggestion that alum is involved seems likely to me as well. I have heard of a sort of "buff" leather that contains alum having been a problem in armor. Alum is one of the common ingredients in renaissance etching paste recipes.

I am going to go out to the shop to taste some leathers. I'll report back later.


Mac

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:28 pm
by mordreth
I'm going to re check my impression from this afternoon.
I have some blood pressure issues, I reacted very badly to a drug last week, went off the drug, and went off salt @ six days ago, my sense of taste is probably really suspect right now.

Sorry I wasn't thinking

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:44 pm
by mordreth
coreythompsonhm wrote:Oh, and Mordreth, that is really a nice belt! I got too excited over possibilities of a buff supplier that I forgot to mention that :oops:
It was a belated gift for Gui Avec Cheval (Viceroy Ostgardr) - he's a very good friend, pretty much a member of my family, and was squired to one of the knights in my lineage.

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:23 am
by Mac
Mordreth,

I am sending you my mailing address through PM.

I was unable to find my bits of the "buff" that become become warm wen moistened with saliva. They're out in the shop somewhere. It seems unlikely that I actually threw something out.

I noshed on a piece of the buff from the side that I used on Dr. Toby's armor. It did not taste bitter to me.

Mac

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:30 am
by Russ Mitchell
I'm not familiar with alum-tawed leather's performance without hot-stuffing it (which is traditional in Hungary, and makes for a hard-wearing, stupidly flexible leather that doesn't have as much spring or stretch as buff but still "flows" like wet rawhide). Relative sponginess would be a function of the bating process in either case, but I've got both on hand and can compare easily.

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:47 pm
by Kel Rekuta
This thread reminds of a 70's TV detective who was forever tasting and smelling evidence to the disgust of his partner. ;-)

I have no idea why some leather would be cool to the lip and others hot. Leather tannage and quality can often be recognized by smell, which I frequently use to evaluate sole leathers. Somehow, if never occurred to me to taste them. Interesting concept though...

Congrats and thanks for discovering and sharing this source Mordreth. That's nice white buff. I have an almost identical white buff side from a recent "bespoke" tannery run here in Ontario. Most of it was split down to lighten the top grain for 1812 era military articles. It has a significant alum content as a whitener. It can be broken over a stake to gain suppleness and slight fulling. (as Mordreth has done)

This is not the buff I would mount to armour. It is somewhat hygroscopic and like natural veg leathers, corrosive to iron. That said, the samples I obtained at the Royal Armouries Cordwainer shop years ago were almost identical in substance and thickness but had been hot stuffed with fish oil. This gave the leather the slightest yellowness or a faint cream colour. In the years since, the oil oxidized and darkened to a dark buff to beige colour. From what I've read and experimented with, breaking over a stake is essential to the flexibility of the fiber without linear stretch. With a little work and cod liver oil, I suspect this white buff could be broken into perfect armour strap material.

Dunno if that helps but its what I have to add to a very good discussion. :-)

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:53 am
by Russ Mitchell
Kel,

I seem to recall last time this came up, it was said that alum wasn't in "real" buff, whatever that is - as opposed to the hot-stuffed, alum-impregnated "hungary tan" hides everybody agreed wasn't real buff leather. Given that, what's substantia and what's accidentia for "real" buff leather?

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:46 pm
by Kel Rekuta
Russ, I did not mean to imply that this white buff was tawed. I suspect it was given an alum wash to whiten it. I do not have a detailed medieval or renaissance recipe for "buff." My research so far indicates historic buff was an oil tannage, with the earliest chemistry details coming from nineteenth century tannery texts. Prior to that any reference to buff tannage is inferred from the supplies a tannery acquired. No oil tanned leather is white, nor is any vegetable tanned leather. Undressed leather doesn't survive hard use for very long, so it has to be stuffed or dressed with some oil or fat. The samples I obtained in the past were definitely oil tanned and dressed with fish oil but not whitened. (definitely tanned by Claytons)

I have only English language sources so there might be something in other European sources. You've found a lot about Hungarian methods. I suppose there must be records from French and German tanneries as well.

The recipe used for the local run was located by 1812 re-enactors and redacted by a local glove and chap leather tannery. I am not privy to any more information than that. However, it looks identical to the white buff Mordreth purchased. I would guess that is from Claytons in the UK. Interesting co-incidence, eh?

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:31 pm
by Russ Mitchell
Yeah, that's where I get a bit confused -- an "alum wash" is pretty much what they describe for the Hungary-tan stuff, too. It's not sitting in barrels for months on end, but soaked for what's probably an hour at most.

And yeah, it is. :)

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:42 pm
by maxntropy
Leather tasting quality checks are awesomesauce.

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:25 pm
by mordreth
I re-checked as I suspected my sense of taste is way off.

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:27 pm
by Kel Rekuta
Russ Mitchell wrote:Kel,

I seem to recall last time this came up, it was said that alum wasn't in "real" buff, whatever that is - as opposed to the hot-stuffed, alum-impregnated "hungary tan" hides everybody agreed wasn't real buff leather. Given that, what's substantia and what's accidentia for "real" buff leather?
Short answer - Any bovine leather prepared using the oxidization of marine animal oils. A similar chemical process to that used in the creation of washing leathers called chamois. A similar product can be produced with a blend of oils, wheat gluten and egg yolk.

Kinda slow afternoon so I skimmed through the tannery texts again. Pretty much anything I could find was already summarized in this excellent article written by a former tanner at Clayton: (This won't be news to Russ)

OIL TAN BUFF LEATHER - MANS' FIRST LEATHER

By Mr Joe G Dewhurst , tanner (now retired) at Clayton's Tannery

It is almost certain to say that leather was first made as a result of rubbing oils and greases into skins to try to produce a suitable material for clothing. Skins simply hung or stretched out to dry produce a hard result and which if allowed to get wet will putrefy and disintegrate.
Tanning is the process whereby a chemical reaction between the skin protein (collagen) and a tanning agent (in this case certain types of oils) results in a physical change to produce a material that does not putrefy when wetted. I.e. the skin is converted to leather.

Professor Procter in his Principals of Leather Manufacture (1922 Chapter 26) (1) sums up much of the information produced by other researchers on the subject of oil tannage. ' In its simplest form it consists merely in oiling or greasing the wet skin and kneading and stretching it as it slowly loses moisture and absorbs fat. Under these conditions the fibres become coated with a greasy layer, which prevents their adherence after they are once separated by mechanical treatment. At the same time some chemical change takes place in the fibre itself, which has a part in its conversion to leather varying in importance according to the method and fat employed.

It is perhaps two to three hundred thousand years ago that oil tannage was discovered and slowly evolved by using the most suitable kinds of greasy material. At some stage the use of smoke was found to further improve the leather, both softening and making the leather more water resistant.

Oil tannage using brains and bone marrow originated in Mongolia and it is possible that some 25,000 years ago man crossed the Bering Straits to America taking their hunting and tanning skills with them. The American Indians (as christened by Christopher Columbus) used brains and smoke to tan their skins. The leather, known as Brain Tan, is still produced in America.

L.A.Flemming (2) gives details of the 'Indian Method of Tanning Buckskins.' Clean the flesh side of the skin so that it is free of all fat and muscle tissue, soak to clean and swell and then 'grain' i.e. scrape off the hair and some epidermal layer using a knife, with the skin supported on a wooden beam 6 to8 inches wide. Brains of the animal (deer, pig, horse or cattle) are wrapped in a cloth and boiled in soft water for an hour. Cool to handle and then squeeze until all the brains are mixed in the water. Place the skin in this mixture and knead and stretch, with 10 minute intervals, for an hour. Leave in the mixture for two hours, restretch, leave 1 hour and then hang up until two thirds dry. Then stretch or stake at frequent intervals as the skin is dried out. Allow to age for two weeks by wrapping in another skin to exclude air. It is then ready for smoking by stretching over a smoke tunnel until the smoke penetrates when it is turned over to do the other side. When the desired colour is reached (the smoke causes the yellowish skin to darken) the skin is tightly folded for several days before washing in tepid water. Rinse and hang to dry completely. Leave for a week, dip in warm water for 3 seconds, fold and leave overnight before staking, hanging and restaking to the desired softness. Staking can be done by drawing a blunt blade over the surface in all directions.

An Eskimo method (3) uses a mixture of finely chopped brains and liver from the newly killed animal (reindeer) in warm water to tan the fleshed and shaved skin by kneading and stretching it in the mayonnaise type mixture for half a day. Wring out tightly and hang to dry slowly until almost dry. Strike out in all directions and then stake over a half moon blunt knife until thoroughly soft. It is then ready for smoking over a damp wood fire, being stretched on a circular frame and rotated to give an even effect. Both sides are smoked for about half an hour.

The Inuits also have knowledge of using seal oil, whale oil and smoke.

Furskins can be made using oils applied only to the flesh side, and using the slow drying and stretching techniques described above.

There are rock paintings in Tanzania depicting men and women dressed in leather garments, these have been dated at 35,000 years old. Similar cave paintings in Spain are 20,000 years old. (4)

It is obvious from the above that many oils and fats have been used with at least some degree of success. The tanning power depends on the chemical structure of the constituents of the material. Marine oils are semi-drying, i.e. they oxidize to a sticky glue, but do not dry to a hard film as do drying oils used in paint manufacture. These are the most efficient tanning oils. Oxidation plays a key role in the tanning action.

The most complete tannage system using oil is the 'chamoising' process that is best known for its use as wash leathers. (Presumably the chamois antelope Rupicapra tragus from the high mountains of Europe and Asia, which made particularly soft leather gave the process its name) Cod liver oil is most commonly used because it has the best tanning action, though formerly whale oil and seal oil were used in Europe. Wash leather is made from the flesh splits of sheepskins which have been limed to swell and open up the fibre structure. This process consists of immersing the skins in a solution of lime for up to two weeks or less if the skins are moved in some way. The tanning method is published (1) quite widely and so is not included here in depth, but a brief outline is of interest. The fleshes are delimed with weak acids to remove excess alkali and then well drained. More water is then removed either by pressing, centrifuging or traditionally by stocking with dry sawdust .It is worth mentioning that probably the first mechanisation in tanning was the introduction of milling stocks used to pummel the oil into the skins by hammering the skins which were held in a suitably shaped box or trough. Animal, water, steam and electric power have all been used.(5) The skins become whiter as air is beaten into the structure and water is dried out by the sawdust. Care has to be taken not to allow the temperature to rise too much as a result of the frictional heat generated - that would destroy the skins.

The 'fulling stocks' are used to rapidly distribute the cod oil as it is added to the skins in a series of additions until no more can be taken up. From time to time they have to be taken out and spread to cool. The oxidation of the oil produces heat in addition to that of the mechanical action.

The oxidation (which is responsible for the tanning action) is then completed by packing into boxes where they heat up. Great care is needed to ensure they do not get too hot and gelatinise. They must be taken out to cool and then re-boxed several times until no further heating occurs. I.e. the tannage is complete. A somewhat simpler system was to hang the stocked skins in a warm (100 degrees F.) room for a week or so.

We now have greasy, foul smelling dark brown objects which after degreasing, first by pressure, followed by washing, become the familiar yellow brown wash leather we all know. They are given a ' wheeling' to fluff up the surface and remove any bits of fleshy material.

There is no mention of liming in the older processes discussed above and it is a matter of conjecture as to when the process became known. Liming ( treating the skins by immersing them in a solution of lime) has very beneficial effect on the quality of most leathers and is used extensively in today's tanneries. There are references to the use of wood ash being rubbed in to the fresh skin. Also, naturally occurring salts have been used. This could have led to the discovery of alum 'tanning', another ancient method which still has a place in the leathers produced today. Examples are military accoutrement leather also known as bandsman leather and cricket ball leather. Possibly the production of alum from the shales of North Yorkshire was the first chemical processing to be done on a large scale in England (6)

This was started in 1604 near Ravenscar. Previously alum had to be imported from Turkey at great expense.

Whilst small skins can be penetrated by the oils without liming, it must have been extremely difficult to deal with a cow hide. There is a reference to this in Homer's Iliad where he compares the struggles between Greece and Rome to that of a man trying to stretch a huge cow hide soaked in lard. Evidence of liming dating back to Anglo Saxon times suggests that medieval tanners were using liming to remove hair and open up the fibre structure and would have used this in their manufacture of oil tan buff leather.

Professor Procter (1922) says that buff leather ('much used for military accoutrements') is made in much the same manner as wash leather using ox or cow hides which have had the grain frized off with a sharp knife, after liming thoroughly. The bleaching was done by exposing the damp tanned skins to sunlight. A chemical process used permanganate of potash to make the leather brown, followed by a sulphurous or oxalic acid solution until the colour is removed.

There have been quite a number of tannages used to make a similar type of leather and this has led to confusion. Some of the leathers are made by using a combination of two or more 'tannages'. For instance, the oil tannage may be combined with an alum treatment, or an aldehyde (formaldehyde, glutaraldehyde) treatment may be used. Modern aluminium tannage produces a white leather as does formaldehyde tannage, but the latter is no longer used because of its toxicity. We now have a range of synthetic tannins which also give white leathers. Genuine buff leather is a pale yellow brown colour present through the whole thickness of the skin.

The lack of demand for oil tan buff leather, along with the demise of tanneries in the UK and Europe over the last 50 years or so had led to the disappearance of this leather. However, as Re-enactment Societies became more active, the demand for a genuine period leather returned. It was as a result of requests from Societies and Museums that J Clayton & Sons (Chesterfield) Ltd. used their 140 years of tanning skills to recreate a leather resembling as closely as possible the original oil tan buff.

The demand is for thick leather, usually between 3 to 5mms which requires a starting point using a heavy cattle hide (35 - 45Kgs.) The process has a strong similarity to the chamois process mentioned earlier.

First of all the hide is washed and then treated with a liming solution which burns off the hair and swells up the hide. This is important because the fibre structure is loosened and will more readily absorb the oils.

In order to produce a uniformly thick hide it is necessary to split some of the flesh side off because hides vary in thickness over the area. A band -knife splitting machine is used to do this. Splitting machines were probably the second success in mechanising leather production and first appeared in the late 18th century. The next stage is to remove the strongly alkaline lime residue from the hide.

This is not achieved by using fermenting bran, oatmeal or sour milk as used in the past, but by using acid salts to gently but quickly remove the lime without causing any acid swelling. The pelt is then in the correct condition to receive an enzyme treatment to further open the structure by dissolving out more unwanted proteins. The enzyme preparations used are rather more user friendly than the earlier sources, namely dog dung or pigeon droppings which somehow had been discovered to have a softening effect on leather. Only later was it found to be the natural enzymes present that were the softening agents.

After the appropriate treatment time the enzyme action is stopped by acidifying with strong acid such as sulphuric or hydrochloric and common salt which is necessary to prevent swelling. The acid also contributes to yet more opening of the fibres, which after adjusting to the correct acidity are ready to receive the oiling.

Before the oiling operation begins it is important to reduce the water content by hanging or squeezing through a samming machine. ( like a mangle) If too wet, the oils do not penetrate, if too dry they will not distribute throughout the thickness properly. As the oils go in, the water comes out. The mechanical action required to drive in the oils is produced by tumbling in a wooden drum (7) fitted with shelves so that the leather is lifted and dropped repeatedly. Hot air (40degrees centigrade) is constantly circulated through the drum to reduce the viscosity of the oils and also commence the oxidation process. The mixture that Claytons (8) use consists of cod oil for the tanning, beef tallow as a lubricant and dégras as an aid to penetration. ( Dégras is actually the excess oil which is extracted from wash leather during the cleaning stages) It takes about six hours drumming to get the greases completely through. This is vitally important (and needs skill and experience to determine) otherwise any part not receiving oil will dry hard and boney. The surface colour changes from white to beige during the drumming but the inside remains white and only changes as oxidation proceeds in the next stage.

In this stage the oxidation is encouraged to proceed as quickly as possible by hanging the hides in a hot room maintained at 38 degees C. Fortunately the process can be tracked by observing a new cut edge in the leather - as oxidation proceeds the colour changes. This takes about two weeks and completes the chemical processing. All that remains is to turn the now hard lump of leather into a thick, warm usable leather.

The old method of conditioning and damping followed by much pulling and stretching is carried out. Several modern machine methods are available but at Claytons the drumming method is used. The damp hide is lubricated by the moisture and is readily softened by the tumbling action. Again, the amount of water in the leather is critical, to allow the hide to dry without stiffening. The leather is pulled flat by stapling on to wooden frames during the final drying. The shrinkage that occurs as the moisture is removed pulls the hide taut and flat.

Finally, the leather is tailored to customer requirements of thickness and surface character. A further drumming of the leather will soften it still more, should this be desired.

What would Homer say about our method?


ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

Thanks to J Clayton and Sons (Chesterfield) Ltd for the assistance in preparing this paper and allowing its publication and to Lawrence Stevens for the invitation to present it on the occasion of their 140th Anniversary.
REFERENCES
1) Procter. Principals of Leather Manufacture. 1922 Chapter 26.
2) Flemming L A Practical Tanning 1910
3) Leather Techniques Through the Ages BASF 75th Anniversary Publication. From a report of the Canadian RCM Police March 1938
4) Leather Techniques Through the Ages BASF 75th Anniversary Publication
5) R Thomson Wolstenholme Lecture Journal of Leather Technologists and Chemists Volume 75 page 85
6) BBC Open2.net Aubrey Manning Landscape Mysteries.
7) The Newcomen Society Excerps from Volume 53 1981 - 82 Patent of George Merchant 1768 Paper by R S Thomson
8) Joseph Clayton and Sons (Chesterfield) Ltd. Process Document

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:55 am
by Russ Mitchell
Okay, so marine oils rather than terrestrial oils. Interesting -- that's a VERY minor distinction. I should make some of this stuff and get rid of the grain layer, just to see how much it winds up being different than the braintans. (though penetration in the hide IS, in fact, a pain in the arse w/o the alum).

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:16 pm
by Talbot
Mac wrote: I am going to go out to the shop to taste some leathers. I'll report back later.

This is one of my favorite statements of all time!


Please keep us posted on this. I am very interested.

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:05 am
by coreythompsonhm
I recieved the two pieces of buff that Mordreth mailed me today. On the brief time I had to play with them, I noticed that the grain is the stiffest part of the leather. I am toying with the idea of removing the grain layer on one of the pieces. Any thoughts on this and the best way to accomplish this?

Re: white buff leather supplier (amended title)

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:07 am
by Russ Mitchell
Good news and bad news.

There's nothing special about this leather; it's a medium quality alum-tawed leather leather with uneven penetration including the lower alum penetration where one of the holding clips has squished the hide and kept it from expanding. So if folks were looking for anything *special,* well... this ain't. This is the same stuff I use all the time (I'm currently making a 4-layer farsetto out of lower-quality leather much like this that I've hot-stuffed and worked open).

On the other hand, if you LIKE the stuff, welcome to the world of alum-tawed awesomeness. It's a good utility leather that's a lot more useful than a lot of writeups make it out, and it tends to be inexpensive compared to an equivalent square-footage in quality veg-tan.

But you shouldn't be paying top dollar for this stuff. It's "buff" only in the sense that it feels like the grain's been abraded to be softer to the touch.