The Armour Archive

... it proves, yet again, that Mr Clements cannot write an article without bashing someone (unsure of the articles date):

"While I myself have no knowledge of historical footwear construction, I can note that reenactors have no reputation as serious martial arts practitioners. Their opinions on footwear should therefore be suspect, given how much of a pass they have long given to the ubiquitous heavy boots worn by so many enthusiasts claiming authenticity."

http://www.thearma.org/essays/historical-footwear.html

Please read the article with a tablespoon of salt because Clements, again, makes claims that are false:

"Keep in mind, groups like the notorious Sca, well-known for abysmal footwork in their ahistorical combat sport, have long had a requirement in their fighting rules to wear steel-toed shoes (which actively discourages any need to stand or move correctly)."

Wow, that brings back memories. It's like 2002 all over again.

John Clements stopped being relevant ten years ago. The world moved on. Especially now, since the his favorite whipping boy -the SCA- wound up producing the primary body of skilled fighters competing in the ACL and BotN.

It came up on a Facebook Rapier forum. It had some nice points but then he did his thing and *poof* destroyed them all.

His points are valid, his claim of steel toed boots being required for sca combat is either ignorance or deliberate bullshit. I find his accusation of sca not wearing authentic shoes to be a bit of broad brush stroke but not outright offensive. I have seen sca fighters wearing a spectrum of footwear. But to counter his argument by mentioning that the sca is contributing to other modern medievalish combat sports is not the greatest of arguments since his article is about recreating actual medieval fighting techniques.

The facts are that if you look through the historical sources, almost without exception you will see image after image of slim, flat, slipper-like shoes. You will not find heavy boots. You will not find shoes with thick heels. You will not find shoes with thick soles. Even when you see high-rise footwear, they typically appear thin with flat soles.

darn those SCA Romans

mordreth wrote:The facts are that if you look through the historical sources, almost without exception you will see image after image of slim, flat, slipper-like shoes. You will not find heavy boots. You will not find shoes with thick heels. You will not find shoes with thick soles. Even when you see high-rise footwear, they typically appear thin with flat soles.

darn those SCA Romans

Not to defend Clements but Roman is not medieval and they fought nothing like medieval knights; nor are roman shoes anything like combat or hiking boots in the slightest.

There were no heels in the shoe finds from the middle ages; they are a late 16th c to 17th century thing. Welted soles don't come in until the 16th century.

See, that's funny, because in every photo of ARMA practitioners I've seen, they're all wearing some kind of hodgepodge of Medievaloid MRL fantasy Princess Bride cotton and elastic costumes in red and black. I don't mean to bash, but I've always felt that wearing such outlandish and fantastical bastardized ahistorical costumes to practice their flavor of martial arts derived from a historical reality wholly discredited them as serious authorities and certainly don't and won't function in a manner true to their needs or claims. Really for the same reason I'd suspect the accuracy of information coming from a dude wearing a Long John Silver or Jack Sparrow costume. Even if they REALLY knew their stuff, how could they be taken seriously or trusted if they're (knowingly) visually misleading. End rant.

EDIT: To expand a bit, I do see the logic in modern shoes supposedly analogous to the way historical ones functioned, but it still seems flawed and hypocritical. Turn shoes would serve them way better than Converse All Stars. When I was in Tae Kwon Do I veered towards Chucks for the same reasons as he cited, but shoes like them will never, ever, ever be a substitute for reproduction shoes in the contexts he refers to.

I don't disagree that heavy boots and heels from the period of the manuals he is reading are wrong but what expert on historical shoes did he talk to? He references nails hurting his feet. None in medieval shoes. Surviving examples all but non-existent?

Jon

"I have always stressed footwork in my practice and am known personally for being quick footed and very agile in my stepping." (Unlike the rest of those clodhoppers!)

I was, personally, hoping to see some Topsiders in the recommendations. I am known, personally, for being quick footed and very agile in my stepping. (Except for last week when I fell into the longship and smashed-up my ribs on the gun'l!)

He makes some good points, but the way he says it really grates on me; and I'm not even a Scadian.


“A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way as you actually look forward to the trip” (Caskie Stinnett)

There are a few sports that use modern shoes that behave like turn shoes.
Wrestling, boxing, and other marshal arts.
They are not very expencive and provide an interesting understanding of footwork and terrain.
Changing shoes can help understand footwork on a deeper level.
Try changing from sock foot, to sneakers, muck boots, and a pair of heavy work boots when doing pell work.

Ignore Clements; he's a loon.

Also, the footer suggests the article is from 1999 or 2001.

-Derian.

Derian le Breton wrote:Ignore Clements; he's a loon.

Also, the footer suggests the article is from 1999 or 2001.

-Derian.

He also seems to have a problem keeping sleeves on his clothing.

Honestly, it seems like every other picture of the guy is sleeveless or completely shirtless. I bet $20 he stands in front of the mirror with his feder just...posing....

I don't know why they wear modern workout clothes when they work out, but anyway the article on footwear seems pretty extensive, and it seems pretty accurate.

Steve

Steve S. wrote:I don't know why they wear modern workout clothes when they work out

WMA community != reenactment community != SCA.

There's overlap between all three, but they fundamentally do different things.

-Derian.

Derian le Breton wrote:

Steve S. wrote:I don't know why they wear modern workout clothes when they work out

WMA community != reenactment community != SCA.

There's overlap between all three, but they fundamentally do different things.

-Derian.

Some WMA groups wear trackpants while playing with wooden swords. Some wear knickers. Some wear shorts. Some wear hosen.

We're all geeks. This alpha geek mentality does nothing to make the overall community look anything more than stupid.

I guess I should clarify my rant somewhat. From what I've seen of ARMA, wear repros of legit Medieval clothes? Awesome. Wear modern workout and training attire? Awesome. Wear fantasyoid hollywood pirate elastic pants and red lace up blouses to practice WMA? Why?