Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

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Klaus the Red
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Klaus the Red »

However, the gambeson draped over the shoulder shows no sign of the doubled shoulder line. There is certain evidence of gambesons being worn over aketons at the end of the century, but it's worth noting that nowhere in the Maciejowski are quilted armors with two colors shown, for example, no blue sleeveless gambeson over a red aketon appears. The sleeves always match the color of the body. If all of the doubled lines at the shoulder indicate two pieces, they were very conscientous to always wear red with red, or white with white. I think the evidence leans towards it being a single garment with a noticeable sleeve seam.
In re: the depictions in the Maciejowski, some observations. I've just done a flip through the giant coffee-tabled edition of the same ("Old Testament Miniatures," publised by George Brazilier). There are a couple of images that are quite clearly, to my eye, showing the body as separate from the sleeves, much less ambiguously than the picture that Ernst posted above (the chap with the three-color war hat). Below, I've linked the scans on the Morgan Library site of the ones I mean.

If I may give some insight as a professional costumer: this does not necessarily indicate a sleeveless quilted garment worn over an entirely separate, sleeved quilted garment. It seems possible to have the sleeves be made up separately and then set in deeply into the armseye of a thick-bodied vest to give the appearance of two items, but with the intent of allowing the "internal" armseye where the sleeve attaches a fuller range of movement, while allowing the "external" armseye to be as heavily padded as the rest of the torso and thus not compromising the protection in the area of the armseye seam. It could also involve quilted sleeves worn on a sort of thin arming vest beneath the heavy separate body. I used to work in the costume shop of a professional ballet company, and we had military jackets for our guys dancing the "Nutcracker" that involved a stiff sleeveless vest and a separate spandex undergarment with sleeves that matched the vest. When worn together, they gave the appearance of a single jacket, but the dancer had much greater freedom of arm motion than he would have had with the jacket and sleeves made as one.
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Klaus the Red »

Folio 3 verso, the guy in the kettle hat just to the right of the red-caparisoned horse: https://www.themorgan.org/collection/cr ... 46/zoomify
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Klaus the Red »

Folio 10 recto, the guy in the kettle hat and brown gambeson(s) emerging from the castle gate: https://www.themorgan.org/collection/cr ... 59/zoomify
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Klaus the Red »

Folio 10 verso, the guy in orange climbing the ladder: https://www.themorgan.org/collection/cr ... 60/zoomify

In all three of these examples, I am seeing a clear depiction of an armseye in the outer layer that is larger than the sleeve seems to need, with a little triangular area indicating a depth of space in the armpit that one would not get in a simple set-in sleeve. There also seems to be no wrinkling of any kind in the armpit area, which would take place even in a heavily quilted sleeved coat with the sleeves attached in the traditional manner (and by contrast, the artist had drawn wrinkles in the same area in all the simple cloth tunics). Furthermore, in the case of the orange guy in 10 verso, there is a very subtle difference in color between the sleeves and the body, enough to convince me that the artist deliberately painted them separately to emphasize the two-piece nature of the garment.

Winterborne's version seems to have captured the correct look.

Thoughts?
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Klaus the Red »

Detail of the orange chap:
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Sean M »

The "teardrop" shaped armscyes are also the kind we see on regular surcotes in that manuscript. I am thinking that speaking of "quilted cotes" and "quilted surcotes" could be a good way to talk about linen armour without the problems where the City of London thinks a gambeson is a sleeveless overgarment worn over the aketon in 1297, but Joinville in 1305-1309 thinks a gambeson is a main garment.

In the marginalia on page 24r, we see creases in the fold of a bent elbow, and at the side where the quilted surcoat is girdled in, but not at the back of the armpit.

It is frustrating that we can't see a quilted undergarment on Mr. Red Ladderclimber, but one of those German chansons de geste says:
A gambeson was found for him,
Of a buckram white,
A span long from the belt,
Under his hauberk.
Something that short would not be visible between the dags in his quilted surcote.
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Sean M »

This picture shows how the upper sleeves on quilted coats are tighter than the upper sleeves on cloth coats in the same manuscript. The fit in the lower sleeve is almost exactly the same on both types of clothing.

Image
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Klaus the Red »

It could be a very stylized way to depict a heavily reinforced seam on a set-in sleeve, but why would the artist bother? Occam's razor tells me these are separate sleeves. Also, when you see one of these garments from the front, there is a pretty distinct "hump" at the back of the shoulder that strongly suggests to me the heavily padded and rounded edge of an outer armseye. The sleeve itself definitely looks like it's emerging from the mouth of a thick-walled tube. If the body was made in one with the sleeve, I would expect it to be a much smoother line of transition. Here are two details from 3v: the fellow in the white quilted coat, and another man in a plain cloth tunic, both in similar poses. The man-at-arms shows the "hump" at the shoulder, but the civilian does not.
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Sean M »

Klaus, the thing I notice about the 3v detail is the line of six white dots at the cuff. I thought that short buttoned cuffs were more of an early-14th-century feature, like BL Additional 10293 and the frescos at Sant'Abbondio in Como, but I was wrong.

It looks like we have the answer to how they achieved the close fit in typical long-sleeved aketons :( In this period, there are three broad styles of sleeves on quilted coats: half sleeves that end above the elbow (Maciejowski, Huelgas Apocalypse), full length narrow sleeves (most of the other MS), and full length sleeves with integral mittens (Maciejowski Bible, Bussy-St. Martin sleeve).
Last edited by Sean M on Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Klaus the Red »

Yeah, that’s a new feature to me as well.
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Sean M »

Klaus, I tell you what: I will be building a prototype early aketon based on sources like the Bonmont Psalter in spring. I will create a simple thread for it in A- D&C.
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

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Neat! I look forward to seeing the results.
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Ernst »

Perhaps lacing is an alternate possibility.
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Klaus the Red »

More news to me! The white dots could just as easily represent teeny little ladder laces as buttons, given how small the details are in this MS. I suspect laced sleeves on an arming coat might be more likely than buttons.
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Sean M »

I think I will go back to buttons on my next 1360s doublet. Modern coarse mail can catch buttons, but modern sharp mail tears the laces at the wrist, it is a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" problem.

The wounded Agesilaus in Ott. Lat. 1417 fol. 22 and some of the soldiers dicing for Jesus' garments in Altichiero's Crucifixion in Padua have buttoned sleeves. The guy in that charcoal-on-paper sketch in the Museum of Fine Arts, Budapest, has a buttoned skirt.
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

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I just stumbled across this guy; a bit of searching puts him at 1325. Sleeveless padded coat over mail over sleeved padded coat. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/457608012112661994/
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Ernst »

Compare the shoulder lines of the sleeved surcoats in the Escorial Ms. T-1-1, Cantigas de Santa Maria LXIII, where there is no indication of quilting lines or padding.
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Re: Questions about Gambesons, Circa 1200

Post by Klaus the Red »

There are a few in the Maciejowski like that also- same apparent rendition of sleeveless-over-sleeved, but no quilting lines.
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