The Armour Archive

Alright,

I've been going through a bunch of plates from the Mac Bible on line and I'm completely confused about the aketon images. It appears that the sleeves and body are separate pieces?? Is it two separate garments that are worn one over the other so the sleeves have more flex but the body has more protection? Are the sleeves just an under jacket style of garment protecting just the arms & armpit like the short coats brides wear?

Confused and I want to build a better padded garment for SCA combat, just not grasping what I'm looking at.

Images can be seen here:
the gentlemen all the way on the left
http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/ ... otm4vb.gif

but in this image the two not wearing mail appear the sleeves are part of the same garment
http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/ ... 10ra&b.gif

am I reading to much into the artistic rendition??

thanks for the help all
Will

I've seen this debated before, you're not the first to note what could be a 2 garment system, however, I think it's the artist style of shading as he makes the collars look the same way.

There is a vendor in Poland who makes this style aketon at a very fair price IMO.

http://www.matuls.pl/english/index.html Just go to the arming garment page. I have 2 of Tomms aketons ( not this style... yet) and I'm very pleased with his work so far. He tailors it to you and will make it with out mittens, etc... standard price is 135 euros... which is about $175.00 plus postage.

Here is a picture.


[img]http://www.matuls.pl/grafika/bojowe/pikowaniec1m.jpg[/img]

I hope this helps.

Cheers,

DT

I have wondered if those folks are wearing a thiner gambeson with the attached sleeves and then a thicker sleeveless body protection over top.

These are very interesting images to look at but we will just never know what is exactly going on, so one educated guess may be as good as another.

There seems to be some subtle visual evidence that the artist means to depict the aketon sleeve that is inset somehow, or that it is coming from an inner garment.

There is very obvious visual evidence that the artist is meaning to depict a collar that is made seperate from the rest of the garment since the collar is often depicted in a different color (from the body). This is arguably beyond the scope of artistic whimsy or license, judging from the seeming level of fidelity of the other details in these illustrations. So...is the collar just made from a different color fabric, yet sewn to the body of the aketon? Is it free-floating? Is it attached to a garment (wholy the same color) underneath?

As Vitus would say:

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:Learned gentlemen.

We
don't
know
all
the
ways
they
might
have
done
it.

Ain't ever gonna know.

Cheers,
Tim

David,

I'm thinking of making an aketon just like that but modifying it for SCA combat by putting ties on the inside that allow me to attach plates and modifying the mittens so I can wear gauntlets under them. I haven't figured this modification out yet because I'm going to need to modify both my gauntlets and the aketon. I also need to make it so that elbows, vambraces & shoulders could be hidden under it.

My thought on the two garment system was this this would be easier to modify for SCA combat because I could make the under aketon more like a modified pourpoint pattern with very thin padding (thinking two layers of cotton with a layer or cotton batting in between) and point my body armor, legs and shoulders to the under garment. Then make the over aketon vest to hide the non-period (dare I say probably plastic) plates that will be their to protect the squishy parts. I would be easier to get geared up with way as well as putting everything on and getting it situated then just pull the vest over to hide the rest.

James,

I think it would make sense. In a real combat situation you would want the primary protection to be on your body. If I can struggle to make a padded jack with up 15 or 20 layers of linen or I can make two thinner garments I know I am going to make the thinner ones because they are going to be easier to work with. With modern sewing machines sewing that many layers is a pain so I can't imagine a lot of people volunteering to do it by hand.

I know that not a lot of fabric garments still exist from this period, just wondering if anyone knew of an example still exists somewhere giving a definitive "yes, two layers were worn" answer.

thanks for the help so far guys
Will

William Freskyn Murray wrote: With modern sewing machines sewing that many layers is a pain so I can't imagine a lot of people volunteering to do it by hand.

Remember labor was cheap back then.

My idea is that the under layer is thiner to allow better movement in the arms and the outer layer is super thick to be more protective.

Another idea is that the under layer is thin enought for a maille shirt to fit over it, but the wearer does not have a maille shirt so he added a gambosen for more protection.


And for the record I have a hand sewn 15 layer jack I made

The problem with the Mac is that there are depictions of the fully sleeved garment:

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/ ... otm3va.gif

And no seperate depiction of a sleeveless garment. I'm also frustrated by the consistent depiction of mail worn without padding underneath (contradicting James' idea that a 2-piece garment could be multi-purpose).

Now, was the under coat as long as the overcoat? That's a tricky one, too, since layers are very often depicted in clear detail. And if the undercoat was only waist-length, for instance, it further argues agains the idea of it serving a secondary purpose as an undergarment for mail.

Finally, inset sleeves (right-side-2-wrong-side) are not represented anywhere else in this or other sources I know of, and details like the seperate collar already pointed out lead me to believe that there was some significance to items designed to a specific function.

Still, I'm more inclined to interpret this as two garments for my own use (and the 12oz hemp linen for this very project arrived YESTERDAY!), and I will make the two garments of near-equal length.

For what it's worth... AoC

[img]http://www.hausvdk.com/VDKresearch/Byzantine/pm_infantry.jpg[/img]

From http://www.levantia.com.au/

Carlyle,

this is exactly my problem. Looking at the image of the two footsoldiers on the left in the white aketon's attacking I would think that this is one garment and the sleeves are sewn to the inside. The soldier in front of them attacking the center pole of the pavilion with an ax appears to be wearing a padded collar but no other artistic impression of padded garment which makes me think this might be THREE garments. An under vest, a "gorget" & a over vest? The person defending himself with his hands on his chapel de fer on the right definitely looks like the sleeves and vest are separate.

My thought on doing this for SCA combat is:

bazubands under tunic
"pourpoint" with elbow length quilted sleeves. Ties for plates for body armor and legs. Probably one layer cotton canvas except the sleeves.
dagged aketon vest
padded gorget to wear under the vest and over/hide my steel gorget
gauntlets for hand protection
steel legs, way out of place but they're safe and I already own them. Besides I wear chausses & braisse under my armor and when I take off the legs it will look right
turnshoes (expect at Pennsic)

again, thanks for the help on this folks
Will

Will,

Interesting that you would quilt the arms and not the body of the undercoat. I was leaning the other direction -- quilting the undercoat somewhat, but only lightly quilting the outside edge of the arms, with no quilting on the inside (but having stitching to look like quilting). This is a similar approach to the one I have taken on past gambesons to discourage any bulk that might impede movement inside my shoulder or elbow.

The idea of using a short-sleeved garment is consistent with my plan, also. Mostly, this is to allow the mail to "peek" out a little; otherwise, it will be entirely covered, and I sure don't want that ! It also allows for upper-arm protection that would otherwise be difficult to conceal. It is rare, but we see a hint of something similar on the (unfortunately) dead figure here:

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/ ... 10ra&b.gif

BTW -- did you notice that there is at least one depiction of a mail-clad footman wearing a sleeveless, quilted overcoat? This is rare and not consistent with the rest of the images, but even if it was an artistic "mistake", it shows the medievals could have at least imagined it, too !

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/ ... 10va&b.gif

Then again, how do you resolve the image of the footman with the axe in this image? A short-sleeved surcoat over mail, clearly not quilted, but with a similar depiction for the junction of sleeve and coat to the ones we have been looking at in the quilted garments? Another rare depiction, but??

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/ ... 10va&b.gif

I am so confused!

A little off-topic, but have you considered gamboised cuisses instead of using the steel legs? I will be moving in this direction myself, and actually saw a few fellows using them at Estrella a couple of years ago to effect. Even if you felt it necessary to reinforce the fabric layers with hidden plates, I think you would find the finished look much more consistent with the portrayal you seem to want than the steel harness will allow.

With kindness... AoC

In the end it could just be the way the artist(s) depicted set in sleeves.

James B. wrote:In the end it could just be the way the artist(s) depicted set in sleeves.

Yes, but would it be too much to ask that they at least use a little consistency ??

carlyle wrote:

James B. wrote:In the end it could just be the way the artist(s) depicted set in sleeves.

Yes, but would it be to much to ask that they at least use a little consistency ??

If I recall correctly there was one main pencil artist and a few that were done by others and there were many painters. Going to an exhibit a few years ago and seeing the pages up close you can see all sorts of mistakes made by the painters.

the "theme" throughout seems to be:

cavalry - full chainmail, sleeveless surcoat, heater shield & "MacBible" great helm

foot soldiers - either
aketon with integral mittens, dagged at the bottom - most of which seem to be red or green and have a white collar
white short sleeve aketon, dagged at the bottom but not at the sleeve.

I want to do a footsoldier portrayal because I don't want to do full chain. I plan on using my current helmet which is an Adam Berry norman spagen based around 1250. My problem is trying to decide between full sleeve aketon and modifying the mittens to hide gauntlets or doing the multiple layer garments. I think both could pass for the look but the decision is which is going to be easier to make, gear up, maintain, be more comfortable and trap less heat.

I have been wearing gamboised cuisses for over a year now and they suck, not the idea or the design, just how I made the pair I have. I am going to switch to the steel legs I just got until I get a chance to make better ones that work. I will go to hidden cuisses under them and "crusader" knees pointed to the outside eventually.

To keep the layers down, and thereby the heat, I was going to make the undergarment one layer with reinforcements where I will point my legs, body armor plates and shoulders. I have done this in the past and it worked great under my gambeson - but I unthinkingly made it out of broadcloth and used plastic plates so I baked like a chicken.... it was protective but hot. This time I'm going to use cotton canvas for durability. The sleeves and aketon vest I figured I would use one layer of cotton canvas on the inside for durability where it will rub on the armor, one layer of cotton batting throughout and one layer of linen for the exterior. This will give the sleeves and body the look of being padded and quilted without the bulk since it won't actually be the part that is protecting me.

Or I could stick with my current gambeson and chainmail, remake my gamboised cuisses and add aillettes and be done ... or an armored surcoat ala St Maurice.... or maybe go 15th Century just for laughs

thanks
Will

Gents, I think there's a third option.

Posit:

1. the construction of such a gambeson such that it was made in its entirety at the "base thickness" -- as I'm discovering with my arming caftan, it's nice if the sleeves aren't as thick as the body (duh...).
2. An additional thick layer of protection then added that covers just the torso.

Results:
1. Once quilted together, it will clearly be a single garment.
2. However, one will also have to seal down the edges of the thicker piece along the shoulder: at minimum it would have to be whipped and rolled so that the fabric doesn't fray. This would handily explain the appearance of the Maciejowski gambeson shoulders, while remaining within the "this artist knows his biz" mindset.

Russ -- So, if I'm reading your theory correctly, you are suggesting not two garments, but one garment assembled of two pieces -- effectively, one fitted into the other and stitched down where they meet. This is an interesting idea. It would certainly address one of the most challenging aspects to me, which is the lack of "layers" depicted that would result if it was two garments (the artists are just too detailed and consistent when it comes to showing layers in all other aspects). Heck, for all that, if only the neck and the bottom slit and hem were taped over, the effect would be the same -- and avoid having to deal with sewing the two pieces together at the arms.

About the only conclusion I can take away from most of this is that there are many ways to interpret the garment, all with at least a modicum of reasonableness. My frustration is that it will be nearly impossible to adhere to traditional re-enactment discipline if I want to portray a knight (even afoot). The quilted armor in all fashions appear to be the domain of the footsoldier (even those wearing mail, if the dead figure and others noted above are any hint). Lacking any indication of body armor (a la St Maurice), however, my choices are limited. Thank goodness for "creative anachronism", eh ?

With kindness... AoC

I actually suspect they *didn't* sew them together at the shoulder, but merely rolled the one seam next to the other, letting them officially join on the main sideseam.

I have real respect for folks who figure out how to do an age-of-mail knightly portrayal in the SCA. Seriously non-trivial issue.

Russ,

good point about the layers... the artistic interpretation throughout the rest of the plates really makes a point of showing the multiple layers on the longer tunics... even though if you read some of the other threads here their's a debate about linings versus layers going on their as well .

The problem I see with my thought of two garments for the interpretation is that if I build a pourpoint to tie all my armor to and then add sleeves then where the aketon vest over the top I'm afraid my range of motion while fighting may expose the unquilted portion of the under vest.

If I wear doing this for LH I would attach the sleeves inside the arm holes and then use left over fabric for edge binding around the arm holes. Do one seem to sew the whole mess together that way you would get the shadowing.

I disagree slightly with doing the mail clad knight being tough, enough people have figured out great ways to hide armor under pants, etc that hiding all the important stuff then throwing chain over it is easy.... I do it now (rivetted aluminum mind you since it's just pretty). I want to do something you don't see every day. My only concern is using my current helmet which has attached chainmail around the base of the skull to mimic wearing a chain coif under the helm. My helm is based off the cover art from Osprey's "The Normans" and everything close I've found in period the soldiers in full chain.... I'm going to go under the assumption that since cavalry fought in full chain and footsoldiers foot in padded garments that regardless of helmet type as a footsoldier I can justify the wearing of padded armor with whichever style of helm. I just think that the chain on the helm may then look completely out of place.

good discussion so far, thanks for the input
Will

Well, that first layer is still quilted (remember the sleeves)... as I see it, thrusts that way would be likely to travel between the layers, rather than go in, based on the angle in relation to the body.