polearms in Outremer

audax · Post by **audax** » Thu May 04, 2006 7:44 am

What sort of polearm would be appropriate for the late Crusader states?

I think it's a bit early for the poleaxe but none of my Osprey's really clears up for me what sort of polearm they'd have been using on foot around 1300 or so in the Levant.

Thanks for any input.

audax

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Thu May 04, 2006 11:21 am

Anything that can be documented in Europe was probably also available in Outremer. I can't speak for the later period, but for late 12th - early 13th centuries, pretty much various lengths of spear/pike/lance, and basic axes on hafts from 4' - 6' ("Danish" axe). The fancier pollaxes, halberds, partisans, etc. all come later, but I'm not sure exactly how much later.

justus · Post by **justus** » Thu May 04, 2006 12:17 pm

From what I've read, the european arms industry overseas was all but non existant and most everything came over by boat.
I'm sure over time, especially in the later crusader era, that there was some western production of arms over there, but Italy wasn't far and was a center of of the arms and armor industry.

The Maciejowski Bible is a good source. Circa 1250

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/ ... _bible.htm

Spears, pole axes, glaives of all sorts, and the famous Maciejowski chopper!

In my opinion, I think the Maj bible over represents a certian few weapons and armor. As in the same group of weapons and armor feature in every illuimanation, but I beleive that what is represented is quite accurate.

-Justus

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu May 04, 2006 5:46 pm

See also http://www.geocities.com/egfroth1/Wacky ... 6424880530 - some of these are very likely to be extremely uncommon weapons on the field, but hey, they look really cool!

justus · Post by **justus** » Thu May 04, 2006 7:06 pm

Nothing terribly wierd there, well maybe the cresent shaped pole arm head, but the rest are common.

There is a short glaive, and several bill hooks, spears and a few double headed axes.

While vikings probably never had them, the double headed axe is common in the middle east. They did tend to be smallish.

The bill hook, the one that looks like the "bill" of a bird, is an ag. tool used for limbing trees, you can still find them at Home depot.

-Justus

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu May 04, 2006 10:20 pm

I envy you folks that have axes that look like real axes.

I was going to make one and give up my "scaginata" because I wanted to look more period and actually use a "real" approximation of my weapon.
Then I pussed out because I'm an egotistical fighter who likes to "win".

I wish they would make that rule again that they had to "look" like a weapon instead of a q-tip.

justus · Post by **justus** » Fri May 05, 2006 12:14 am

I used to use a "War Oar" or essentialy the weapon you would make if you went by the Marshals hand book for a padded pole arm and had never actually seen a real pole weapon.

I've also used unpadded pole arms.

Latley I've been trying to make my weapons look as real as possible, and I learned something, they work beter that way.

I'm able to use the head of my pole axe to catch imcomming shots, push and pull other peoples weapons around, and reach over the iron chicken defense with the blade of the weapon and knock people on the helm.

All things I couldn't do with my unpadded pole, or even my waroar.

Give it a try.

-Justus

audax · Post by **audax** » Fri May 05, 2006 2:33 am

I totally forgot about the Maciejowski chopper. I love that thing! Didn't someone on the Archive make one for SCA combat? I'll try one of those danish axes too. Maybe a glaive.

Thanks everybody.

audax

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:44 pm

Leo Medii wrote:I envy you folks that have axes that look like real axes.

I was going to make one and give up my "scaginata" because I wanted to look more period and actually use a "real" approximation of my weapon.
Then I pussed out because I'm an egotistical fighter who likes to "win".

I wish they would make that rule again that they had to "look" like a weapon instead of a q-tip.

Come to the Dark Side . . . join us and fight with steel . . . you know you want to . . . join us . . . join us. . .

Darth Egfroth

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Fri May 05, 2006 11:59 pm

join us and fight with steel . . . you know you want to . . . join us . . . join us. . .

You'd throw me out!

I LOVE fighting with live steel....it's the part about not using full strength and speed I can't do.
heck....I tone it down notches for SCA....

I'd fight real tourney if I could. Alas....I was left to live in the time of the modern "man". :twisted:

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed May 10, 2006 8:03 am

Sir Justus,

What do you think of the efficacy of a two handed axe and/or a Macky chopper in SCA combat?

Thank you,

audax

justus · Post by **justus** » Wed May 10, 2006 4:34 pm

Well personally I think two handed axe, 4-5 foot is the most fun you can have in the SCA, but only against another 4-5 foot axe. It is also the closest thing to grappling you can do in our sport, as the fighting is very close and physical. It is not like a bastard sword fight at all.

Against the other weapons it is fun and can be effective, but there is a steep and painful learning curve.

One of my 6' pole arms has a head shaped like a chopper, but I don't know if I would bother making a short version, as you would have to use foam to make the edge, and then you would basically have a bastard sword that didn't hit very well.

Though as an experiment, since a four foot bastard sword doesn't need foam in the edge, I might try to build up the profile on the back of the blade, just for looks, leaving the rattan on the striking surface.

Justus

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Wed May 10, 2006 5:10 pm

justus wrote:I used to use a "War Oar" or essentialy the weapon you would make if you went by the Marshals hand book for a padded pole arm and had never actually seen a real pole weapon.

I've also used unpadded pole arms.

Latley I've been trying to make my weapons look as real as possible, and I learned something, they work beter that way.

I'm able to use the head of my pole axe to catch imcomming shots, push and pull other peoples weapons around, and reach over the iron chicken defense with the blade of the weapon and knock people on the helm.

All things I couldn't do with my unpadded pole, or even my waroar.

Give it a try.

-Justus

You have hit it on the head! I have found the same thing and that I can confound guys that are using willow wands as polearms. Often they just don't know what to do about a weapon thta can block their shots, bind their hafts, push their weapons off line etc.

The added versatility against shields is notable also. Getting a really good grip on the edge of a shield and peeling it open for your spearman to gack the owner is a pleasure almost as sweet as geting him yourself by pulling the top of it down and face-thrusting him as he tries to recover the shield.

Glen K · Post by **Glen K** » Fri May 12, 2006 12:30 pm

I found this:*

They didn't have pole arms in Outremer. They had "stick" arms, because it's the best that the barbaric, backwards west could come up with. Only with significant contact with the enlightened east could they borrow ideas and technology that would one day allow them to make good copies of "pole" weapons"
-- David Nicolle

*by "found", I mean "made up". :twisted: