The Armour Archive

Yesterday, I completed the first step on the long road to creating a Scythian personna (for use in the SCA), I made my first pair of Scythian trousers (inspired by the Solokha Comb). I am also finally meeting the local SCA folks (I relocated here a couple of years ago) and I don't want to confuse everybody by teaching them my old personna & personna name (Henry Hawkins, late 14th century English mercenary archer). So, I really need to get going on choosing a new name and background. And maybe you kind folks can offer some advice...

Okay, so a Scythian personna, right? Well, kind of. I like Greek culture too, and it strikes me that a Scythian could embody the fusing of Greek and Scythian culture. I know that, for a time, Scythian archers formed a "police force" under Greek employ in the city of Athens. I am considering making my personna the son of a Athenian woman and a Scythian archer. My reasoning is that I might then take a Greek name---the only known Scythian names form about a half dozen choices.

My real name, Timothy, is a Greek name though not an archaic form. but adopting an archaic form of the name Timothy appeals to me.

• Timagenidas
• Timagoras
• Timais
• Timanthes
• Timasion
• Timasitheus
• Timasithius
• Timnes
• Timoleon
• Timon
• Timonax
• Timotheus
• Timoxenos

Okay, so here are my questions:

What would the proper name format be? Timonax of Athens? Timonax, son of ???

Other than being outside the SCA spirit of being "mostly medieval culture and beyond" can anybody see a problem with the basis behind the personna?

Thanks for your indulgence!

Cheers,
Tim

while i am no expert on these things and can't really help with the research. i do have to say i think it would be acceptable to use a greek name but no for sure how you would tie in " son of" or "from location" and so on..


but i love that your personna is scythian, it was my first attempt at a personna and i got out of the ring for a bit and am back now.....but this time i'm doing 15th century hungarian, but i still have a soft spot in my heart for the grandest horse archers of all

Try this Oxford U site: http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/

The vast majority of Greeks only had given names, there were no family names. They did occasionally have 'nicknames' added to that. They were often VERY descriptive.

I've met a gal online that goes by (say...) "Mary" Calipgia. "Mary" Fine-ass. No, she wouldn't send me pictures.

Thanks, Alcy


At this point the following looks good to me:

(1) Timoleon (Son of _______, the Athenian)
----meaning: Honoring Lions

(2) Timoxenos (Son of _______, the Athenian)
----meaning: Honoring Strangers

I understand the "son of" and "Athenian" are historical but not strictly necessary, however in the SCA where a distinction might need to be made btween myself and another Timoleon (if there are any) it seems prudent to further identify the personna. I guess this is not really a problem since I'm not sure I care if the name and badge are officially registered or not.

The heraldry suggested by Timoleon is a lion. The facing lion's head would therefore be an obvious choice for a personal badge, though I imagine it has already been claimed within the SCA.

Cheers,
Tim

T. Finkas wrote:Thanks, Alcy


At this point the following looks good to me:

(1) Timoleon (Son of _______, the Athenian)
----meaning: Honoring Lions

(2) Timoxenos (Son of _______, the Athenian)
----meaning: Honoring Strangers

I understand the "son of" and "Athenian" are historical but not strictly necessary, however in the SCA where a distinction might need to be made btween myself and another Timoleon (if there are any) it seems prudent to further identify the personna. I guess this is not really a problem since I'm not sure I care if the name and badge are officially registered or not.

The heraldry suggested by Timoleon is a lion. The facing lion's head would therefore be an obvious choice for a personal badge, though I imagine it has already been claimed within the SCA.

Cheers,
Tim

Tim,

Here are my thoughts as a classicist, take what you will from them. If your mother was an Athenian woman married to a Scythian horse archer, then it is unlikely she would have been from the upper class. It would have been mortifying for an upper class woman to be married off to a barbaros. She could have been a slave or freedwoman or one of the many foreigners living in the city. In one of the Black Sea colonies, this may have been different, but given that the Greeks were obsessed with honor, decorum and keeping the money in the family, it still would have been an unusual marriage arrangement. Unless, of course, our horse archer was fabulously wealthy.

Also consider combining "time" honor with "hippos" horse for your name. The Scythians were seriously nuts about horses, as were many of the Indo European peoples and -ippe, -ippos name terminations are very common in Greek naming practices as well. Not that there is anyting at all wrong with Timoleon. I think you can drop the "the" before Athenian as well. For a bit more depth on the subject of Greek names check out this site, if you already haven't: http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/names/index.html

I hope this is of help to you.

Regards,

audax

Good input, Audax. I will take it to heart. So let's throw away the "half-breed Greek" component of the personna . I like the idea of a horse-based name. but the Scythians seem much fonder of griffons, lions and stags than horses. IMHO, horses seem to be a minority in their iconology compared to the aformentioned beasts/animals.

Cheers,
Tim

Tim,

first off... good to meet you this weekend.

Don't forget a culture that understands and values the horse as a representation of wealth and a tool may not necessarily depict it in its art. Horses and other animals have forever been a judgement of ones wealth but aren't very well represented in art through the centuries other than pulling wagons or carrying riders.

We tend to utilize artwork for historic research as it is the only means for us to have some idea of what things were like "then" but to the artist who was creating them, and this I think is true today as well, you don't tend to paint/sculpt/etch/etc that which is common to them. Artists are trying to make money so are they more likely to sell an urn with a horse on it when the client can look out the window and see a horse or are they likely to sell an urn with a griffon, lion or stag that the potential client doesn't see every day?

capitalism definitely isn't a new concept so not seeing a large representation of horses in art of the time doesn't mean they weren't horse freaks . To determine that I think you would have to look at what, if anything, is available in written records - inventories of estates, dowries paid for marriages, ransoms, etc.

with this being said I know nothing about the Scythians so I ain't gonna be much help on your actual question, but just wanted to comment on your thought about horses not being well represented in their iconology.

Another thing about the SCA because of the wide range of times that could be covered using "of" names or "son of" names allows you to time surf over large time frames if you want to. A large number of people use "of" or the ethnic variation (German - "von", etc) to not nail themselves to a specific persona. Just like if today you were "Timothy of Mercer" you could bounce between PA, OH & KY and be from Mercer County... not to mention the number of towns/cities named Mercer.

Hope that helps
Will

Tim,

first off... good to meet you this weekend.

Don't forget a culture that understands and values the horse as a representation of wealth and a tool may not necessarily depict it in its art. Horses and other animals have forever been a judgement of ones wealth but aren't very well represented in art through the centuries other than pulling wagons or carrying riders.

We tend to utilize artwork for historic research as it is the only means for us to have some idea of what things were like "then" but to the artist who was creating them, and this I think is true today as well, you don't tend to paint/sculpt/etch/etc that which is common to them. Artists are trying to make money so are they more likely to sell an urn with a horse on it when the client can look out the window and see a horse or are they likely to sell an urn with a griffon, lion or stag that the potential client doesn't see every day?

capitalism definitely isn't a new concept so not seeing a large representation of horses in art of the time doesn't mean they weren't horse freaks . To determine that I think you would have to look at what, if anything, is available in written records - inventories of estates, dowries paid for marriages, ransoms, etc.

with this being said I know nothing about the Scythians so I ain't gonna be much help on your actual question, but just wanted to comment on your thought about horses not being well represented in their iconology.

Another thing about the SCA because of the wide range of times that could be covered using "of" names or "son of" names allows you to time surf over large time frames if you want to. A large number of people use "of" or the ethnic variation (German - "von", etc) to not nail themselves to a specific persona. Just like if today you were "Timothy of Mercer" you could bounce between PA, OH & KY and be from Mercer County... not to mention the number of towns/cities named Mercer.

Hope that helps
Will

Thanks Will,

I was cool to meet you too. Thanks for the thoughtful advice on this matter.

My meandering concept currently has my character a Greek. Perhaps, in the mind of my personna, the Scythian gear would be a "costume" for the grand melee pageant. I had a fun idea of buying a carport frame, having a canvas cover made for it, and painting it to look like a Greek temple .

Cheers,
Tim

I've met a gal online that goes by (say...) "Mary" Calipgia. "Mary" Fine-ass. No, she wouldn't send me pictures.

Isn't Calipigia actually "BIG assed"?

Effingham

Big ass, fine ass, Its all the same to me... and possibly to the greeks too.

They were ass fans after all.

-+G

Effingham wrote:

I've met a gal online that goes by (say...) "Mary" Calipgia. "Mary" Fine-ass. No, she wouldn't send me pictures.

Isn't Calipigia actually "BIG assed"?

Effingham

The prefix Cali- Kalli- etc would come from kallistos meaning pretty or beautiful. I have no idea what the word for ass in Ancient Greek might be. I'll look in my LSJ tonight and see what I can find.

audax

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en ... iki/V%25C3%

http://www.sacred-texts.com/sex/rmn/rmn04.htm

Go ahead, tell Venus she has a fat ass.

You could just be Timotheos (he who fears [honours] the god - timo = I fear, theos (not theus, which is Latinized Greek) = god).

Interestingly, the word "the" would normally be before your name in Greek usage - you would be ('o timotheos) - the Timothy. If someone was talking to you, he'd call you o timothee - pronounced (approximately) O timo thay ay.

And remember that the names of Ancient Greeks didn't have initial capitals - mostly they wrote in ALL capitals - not only that, there were no gaps between words.

So it'd be like IAMTIMOTHEOSTHEATHENIANANDIGREETYOUINTHENAMEOFTHEGODDESS.

And yes, kali (final letter is Eta, for which we don't have an exact equivalent in our alphabet) means beautiful, fair, nice etc. To this day, Greeks say kalimera (good day), kalispera (good evening) etc. See http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/callipygian - pyge' = rump, buttocks. If she had protuberant buttocks, she'd be steatopygious, like the hottentots and the bushmen of South Africa.

BTW, the Greeks regarded Scythian costume as barbaric. As I understand it, they particularly sneered at the trousers. It MIGHT do as a costume for a festival, but I have no idea whether the Greeks actually did that kind of thing.

If you really like the Scythians, why not just take a Scythian name? Granted surviving ones are fairly thin on the ground, it's probably more appropriate for what you want to do. I googled "Scythian name" and got http://www.geocities.com/mariamnephilem ... thian.html

Anyhow, have fun with it.

Thanks Egfroth---helpful stuff!

Egfroth wrote:...If you really like the Scythians, why not just take a Scythian name? ...

Yeah, I had reviewed those names afore now...there are less than a dozen of them extant and none of them "grab" me. Hmmmm...maybe I will reconsider?

Cheers,
Tim

Egfroth wrote:So it'd be like BTW, the Greeks regarded Scythian costume as barbaric. As I understand it, they particularly sneered at the trousers.

Not just barbaric, but effeminate. Herodotus in particular, sneers at the Persian custom of wearing pants as not only effeminate but soft and weak as well. Of course his whole thesis is that the Greeks won the Persian wars because they were a young, rough, tough poor people by comparison to the soft, weak Persians, who ironically had once been rough and tough, too.

Lord, I love this stuff. I love talking to people who love history like I do. Well met, Egfroth.

audax

audax wrote:Lord, I love this stuff. I love talking to people who love history like I do. Well met, Egfroth.

audax

Moi aussi, mon vieux. Moi aussi.

I suspect that some if not many of the names on that (short) Scythian Names listing are derived from other cultures. For instance, "Saulius" comes up as a Pre-Christian Lithuanian name. Where the Sakae in what is now Lithuania? I hadn't though so...

Hmmmm....<scratching head>

Tim

I may have found what I want! In Herodotus there is a mention of Tymnes who is the Steward of Ariapeithes, King of the Scythians. And I was hoping for a permutation of Tim/Timothy (my real name).

So...

Tymnes, Steward of Ariapeithes

I know an SCA personna cannot be a actual historical person so I won't try to register this officially. Any thoughts? Feedback?

Thanks,
Tim

right there with you. gone Greek over the last 1.5 years, still trying to find a name.

i think i've gotten it down to Mentor or Linus. of course this is after i got everyone to stop using my titles and stick to "look out Rob!"

the lion scalp device is used by Count (Duke?) Hanse of the East. iirc, it's registered. but, being a non-period device, it might be different on paper than on the shield.

and, yeah, the wearing of pants denotes a certain lack of manliness . although i can't imagine the inner thigh calluses you'd have to have to ride a horse bareback w/o stirrups or pants for any length of time. but on the march, i'm guessing olive oil would prevent chafing.

of course the other end is when you had 'the cool kids' apeing the Spartans and wearing a nasty worn out red cloak as their only garment.

rob(in) wrote:...the lion scalp device is used by Count (Duke?) Hanse of the East. iirc, it's registered. but, being a non-period device, it might be different on paper than on the shield...

thanx. However if I am not to be Timoleon (and thus be more or les obliged to use a lion in my heraldry) I can choose from the many other funky Scythian icons. One cool one is a sturgeon---there is an extant one in gold foil that is presumed to have graced a shield. I gotta check to see if anybody has registered on gold fish

Interestingly, the word "the" would normally be before your name in Greek usage - you would be ('o timotheos) - the Timothy. If someone was talking to you, he'd call you o timothee - pronounced (approximately) O timo thay ay.



the o' (omicron and tittle, tittle is an accent mark that looks remarkebly like an apostrophe) before words were not really used for names, but rather decelntion and tense... for example

o'kubernetes estin to'ploin

(writing without greek letters here) translates rougly to...

the captain enters into the ship

but the o' would not be used in the following

'hegestretos legos estin to'ploin

Hegestretos speaks into the ship

And the 'o is actually an "h" sound.

Alric

T. Finkas wrote:I may have found what I want! In Herodotus there is a mention of Tymnes who is the Steward of Ariapeithes, King of the Scythians. And I was hoping for a permutation of Tim/Timothy (my real name).

So...

Tymnes, Steward of Ariapeithes

I know an SCA personna cannot be a actual historical person so I won't try to register this officially. Any thoughts? Feedback?

Thanks,
Tim

Maybe you could just call yourself "Tymnes the Steward"? And if anybody asks, you could say not THAT Tymnes the Steward, a DIFFERENT Tymnes the Steward.

Alric, that's interesting about the use of 'o - certainly that's not how it was taught to me - it was always "the" before the name. Admittedly I only learnt for a year - much to my disappointment. I've always regretted not being able to continue.

However, I've just been checking several sources I have at home - Lucian, the Greek New Testament, Sophocles - and they all use 'o (or ton or H, depending on the gender) before people's names.

You also find it in places like Byzantine ikons; you get 'o Agios Demetrios (or Georgios or whoever) written on the ikon (usually abbreviated) as here, and in Byzantine manuscripts and texts (such as the Chronicle of John Skylitzes.The De Administrando Imperio of Constantine Porphyrogennetos is inconsistent with its use of the definite article before people's names, using it sometimes and not using it others.