Waffenrock and helmet?

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:01 pm

Greetings,
I have a plan to upgrade my harness to that of a Landsknecht officer in the mid 16th century. Would a waffenrock be appropriate for that time? I'm want to use the rock to coven the blatant SCAisms of my harness until I can replace them. Would a burgonet be appropriate with a waffenrock? Or am I looking a more of a closed helm? I looked at the I wanna be a landsknecht thread and didn't see an answer.

Thanks!

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:53 pm

The earliest example of a burgeonet dates to about 1510. I think waffenrocks are good until at least 1525-40. I see no reason for you not wearing them together.

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:15 am

I'm pretty sure there are Jost Amman woodcuts from the first half of the 1500's that show mounted troops in Burgeonets and Waffenrocks.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:24 am

Yes, a Waffen Rock and early Burg, would be appropriate for a middle level landsknecht officer. Say a Provost, or such. The Close helms were worn more with a full rig, and usually full rigs like that were worn by nobility and Cavalry. However, I believe there is evidence of the full rig AND a waffenrock worn together.

But, if you are going for mid level officer, a waffen rock is just fine.

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:49 am

Great! Now to start looking for pictures of early burgonets. Jost Amman woodcuts, here I come!
Thanks!

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:16 am

here are some. Some SCA some historical. The maker of the SCA ones are in the image description:

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:20 am

more:

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:51 am

more:

Earlier Burgs seem to have a solid or articulated back plate and usually have no cheek plates or no HINGED cheek plates.

later burgs have hinged cheek plates, the more pronounced central ridge or "comb" and even later versions had the falling Buffs on the face.

If you are going early Landsknecht, I would stick with the earlier burg or Gothic Sallets.

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:49 pm

I found this picture from a Swedish group's site. Looks like what you were talking about, Irish. No hinged cheeks or buff. Definately looks like a transition from the "coal skuttle"sallet and the burgonet. I also posted the 3/4 harness, because eventually, I would like to get one and then lose the waffenrock.

Thanks for the pics, I've added them to my collection.

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:10 am

I reviewed the Jost Amman plates and the few deictions of Waffenrocks all seemed to be accompanied by close helms like
these:

http://p7.hostingprod.com/@illusionarmo ... metpun.JPG

http://p7.hostingprod.com/@illusionarmo ... ospunc.JPG

Cheers,
Tim

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:18 am

Great! Now to start looking for pictures of early burgonets. Jost Amman woodcuts, here I come!

Durer might be of some help, too.

http://www.conncoll.edu/visual/Durer-pr ... pass1.html

Start there.. I don't have em memorised.

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:27 pm

Hmmm, looking at Jost Amman,, he was in his heyday post 1560. Probably explains the close helm and waffenrock combination. His daily life sutff is great. As for Durer, right now i'm digging through the 1500-1550s German pages at the web gallery of art.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:53 pm

*fap**fap**fap**fap**fap**fap**fap**fap**fap*

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:54 am

Urs Graf is an excellent resource:

http://images.google.com/images?q=Urs+G ... art=0&sa=N

He specifically drew Landsknecht on campaign. Because, he WAS a landsknecht on campaign.

Gottfried · Post by **Gottfried** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:25 am

InsaneIrish wrote: He specifically drew Landsknecht on campaign. Because, he WAS a landsknecht on campaign.

Um Irish actually Urs Graf was a Swiss ReislÃ¤ufer.
Never the less he did depict Landsknecht in his woodcuts and drawings (often not in the best of light)

Michael Ekelmann send me mail and I will send you a PDF with a large collection of Woodcuts you can look through it your self and see if there is something you like. email is gottfriedkilianus@hotmail.com

Gottfried

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:43 am

Gottfried wrote:Um Irish actually Urs Graf was a Swiss ReislÃ¤ufer.
Never the less he did depict Landsknecht in his woodcuts and drawings (often not in the best of light)

Then who am I thinking of? Gonna have to go back find the name.

Michael Ekelmann send me mail and I will send you a PDF with a large collection of Woodcuts you can look through it your self and see if there is something you like. email is gottfriedkilianus@hotmail.com

Gottfried

Can I have a copy of said PDF to?

Saburou · Post by **Saburou** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:24 pm

knotwolf made Colin of Loch Leven's burgonet?! Jesus, that's JUST what I need to have a persona crisis!

Petranella · Post by **Petranella** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:20 pm

When you're looking at pics pay attention to the Waffenrocks too. Most of the skirts attach at the bottom of your short ribs, not at your natural waist and definately not where most men wear their pants. In most of the reconstructions, I've seen that detail is missed.

Valley of the Fir Trees · Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:57 pm

Thanks for the link II

Urs Graf is an excellent resource

I guess that depends on what you are researching. Now, if you are trying to find period references for lighting farts...

woodwose · Post by **woodwose** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:55 am

InsaneIrish wrote:
Gottfried wrote:Um Irish actually Urs Graf was a Swiss ReislÃ¤ufer.
Never the less he did depict Landsknecht in his woodcuts and drawings (often not in the best of light)

Then who am I thinking of? Gonna have to go back find the name.

maybe Paul Dolstien, he was the landsknecht that kept an illustrated journal... early 1500's, I don't recal seeing and waffenroc though