Curiosity

[Boner]

Have been perusing this forum for some time and find it to be an incredible source of information and talent. However...Being a metal weapon re-enactor, I have wondered why the SCA uses rattan instead of steel weapons (apart from the obvious asnwer of less fatal). Just curious is all.

[Maeryk]

Have been perusing this forum for some time and find it to be an incredible source of information and talent. However...Being a metal weapon re-enactor, I have wondered why the SCA uses rattan instead of steel weapons (apart from the obvious asnwer of less fatal). Just curious is all.

Well, for starters, we'll take anyone who can swing a stick, suit em up, and say "go for it".

Works great with rattan.. you don't break your friends (or even newly met fight partners) nearly as easily with rattan as you do with steel.

Second, I cannot _imagine_ what a non-choreographed live-steel melee with 2000 people would look like, nor can I imagine the line of ambulances leading away. (Caveat: THis is with people who may have only been "training" for a month or two, just enough to be "Safe" to themselves on the field. not established groups like those in Europe who do this regularly)


Thirdly, when the SCA got it's start, they experimented with a number of things, but back then, the "live steel" aspect wasn't as widespread as it is now, so they settled on rattan. (early on, it was ash spears! Eek!)

[knitebee]

Because SCA fighters like to HIT HARD and they cann't do that safely with steel blades.

Brian

[Alcyoneus]

Its safer. We can hit a lot closer to full force. We can also give a pretty good thrust.

Its cheaper. A 36" stick of rattan only costs about $9.

[Maeryk]

Because SCA fighters like to HIT HARD and they cann't do that safely with steel blades.

Brian

Well, we could. But it would require armor standards that most of us wouldn't be able to afford. And lots and lots and lots of repairs.

And people might find that most of their "money shots" as it were, simply don't work in real life.

[Kilkenny]

Because SCA fighters like to HIT HARD and they cann't do that safely with steel blades.

Brian

Well, we could. But it would require armor standards that most of us wouldn't be able to afford. And lots and lots and lots of repairs.

And people might find that most of their "money shots" as it were, simply don't work in real life.

I don't believe that we could fight with heavy contact such as we currently use with steel weapons and not accomplish what we currently are only simulating. Upgrading armour standards wouldn't be enough. Weapons meant to defeat armour would do what they were meant to do. People would get seriously hurt.

The fundamental difference between fighting using rattan and fighting using steel is that with rattan we get to go harder and faster and really strike our target.

As to the "money shots" not working, I just do not buy that argument. People would definitely discover that they needed to be more aware of edge alignment, but that's a different thing. Human anatomy doesn't change when you change what you're holding, which means what I can deliver effectively with a 3-4 pound piece of rattan sword simulator, I can repeat with a similar steel sword.

[Strongbow]

It's also a cost issue. Quality steel swords are SPENDY. ANd the top tier of SCA fighters fight a LOT. They would go through a lot of money in swords alone.

[InsaneIrish]

Have been perusing this forum for some time and find it to be an incredible source of information and talent. However...Being a metal weapon re-enactor, I have wondered why the SCA uses rattan instead of steel weapons (apart from the obvious asnwer of less fatal). Just curious is all.

One would be tradition. In the SCA's earliest conception Rebated Steel was more of a fantasy than reality. Any group doing rebated steel was either very new, very small, or very sparse. So, the current knowledge base that we have today was not available to those who started the SCA. So, wooden wasters were used in the beginning. As the SCA progressed in skill, size, and safety, armour and weapon safety requirements increased. I imagine that since we started with wood, that the "mind think" was to continue with wasters instead of making a whole sale switch to rebated steel.

Two would be power. The SCA as a whole goes full speed, full power THROUGH their target. Rebated steel can go full speed, full power TO their target. Some say it is a symantic arguement, but personally I think the follow through of the SCA is what makes us using rebated steel in our current system impossible. That follow through is what would cause injuries and armour failure on a great scale.

Three is training. The SCA has a relatively LOW requirement of training to get on the field. Basicaly, you get your armour, you get your weapon, you show the marshals that you are safe to your self and others and then you go play. "Safe to yourself and others" means that you have some control over the power of your swings and that you can block some shots. Rattan is very forgiving, if we were to switch to Rebated Steel our training requirements would need to be increased drastically.

Four, our current minimum armour standards would need to be wholesale increased. requiring (for some) significant finances to upgrade.

So, basicly what it comes down to is that our game was spawned on wooden wasters and progressed to Rattan. Now, we are so big that to make a wholesale switch would be to cumbersome and counter productive.

[Leo Medii]

Because I would kill one of my freinds by accident.

[Tibbie Croser]

Boner, the SCA rapier fighters and Cut-and-Thrust fighters use steel simulators. But the fighting style is very different from rattan.

[lorenzo2]

What would the purpose of using rebated steel be? If it is more accurate combat then the SCA would have to totally revise all aspects of its fighting. Take a look at the moves in Talhoffer or Fiore. There is a great deal of grappling, wrestling, throwing down your enemy. There full of blows designed to quickly incapacitate by defeating armor, breaking limbs, etc. Silly stuff like knee fighting or wraps are SCA specific not medieval. Every fighter would have to unlearn 90% of what they have been trained to do and learn how to fight safely in a whole new way.

If the purpose was not to fight in a more historically accurate way, then why do it at all?

[Tor Magnusson]

wraps are SCA specific not medieval

Really, you know that for a fact? Didn't know time traveling has been invented... Just becuase Talhoffer or Fiore didn't put them in their books dose not mean people did not throw them... I bet you that one someone was grappling someone and there sword arm was free, there were probably plenty of wraps thrown... Also pre-being totally encased in armour, when the back of the head was only covered in chain, the back of the head was a great target......

[Leo Medii]

There is a great deal of grappling, wrestling, throwing down your enemy.

Amen.

There full of blows designed to quickly incapacitate by defeating armor, breaking limbs, etc.

The fun stuff.

Silly stuff like knee fighting or wraps are SCA specific not medieval.

Can. Worms. Open. Ego's.

Every fighter would have to unlearn 90% of what they have been trained to do and learn how to fight safely in a whole new way.

Glad I'm not in that 90%. I would simply be able to flip that mental "oh, don't do that" switch off. Then I would sigh the sigh of happiness.

Then I'd accidentally kill someone.

[Kilkenny]

What would the purpose of using rebated steel be? If it is more accurate combat then the SCA would have to totally revise all aspects of its fighting. Take a look at the moves in Talhoffer or Fiore. There is a great deal of grappling, wrestling, throwing down your enemy. There full of blows designed to quickly incapacitate by defeating armor, breaking limbs, etc. Silly stuff like knee fighting or wraps are SCA specific not medieval. Every fighter would have to unlearn 90% of what they have been trained to do and learn how to fight safely in a whole new way.

If the purpose was not to fight in a more historically accurate way, then why do it at all?

Presumptive arguments really are not very effective. Adopting rebated steel would not, perforce, require adopting grappling - anymore than continuing with rattan, perforce, prohibits adopting grappling.

Grappling is its own whole debate.

Wraps - well - it's my experience that the argument that wraps are strictly modern is based on belief, not evidence. It does indeed seem to be true that none of the medieval writers used the term "wrap" as the name of a blow. Yet pictorial evidence of techniques that demonstrate wrap mechanics exists. It is entirely possible to use wrap technique and strike accurately with the edge of a sword, and with significant power.

But again, presumptive argument.

And I think the 90% estimate of what would need to be unlearned is hyperbole, but I'll grant that training would be very different.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

Take a look at the moves in Talhoffer or Fiore. There is a great deal of grappling, wrestling, throwing down your enemy. There full of blows designed to quickly incapacitate by defeating armor, breaking limbs, etc. Silly stuff like knee fighting or wraps are SCA specific not medieval. Every fighter would have to unlearn 90% of what they have been trained to do and learn how to fight safely in a whole new way.

Yes, because most medieval warriors and knights learned to fight by reading books.

[Leo Medii]

[chef de chambre]

Take a look at the moves in Talhoffer or Fiore. There is a great deal of grappling, wrestling, throwing down your enemy. There full of blows designed to quickly incapacitate by defeating armor, breaking limbs, etc. Silly stuff like knee fighting or wraps are SCA specific not medieval. Every fighter would have to unlearn 90% of what they have been trained to do and learn how to fight safely in a whole new way.

Yes, because most medieval warriors and knights learned to fight by reading books.

No, most of them learned to fight from masters of arms, some of whom happened to write books, some of which later era books happened to survive.

Enough of these books exist, and enough documentary evidence exists from arms masters being retained by lords, that two broad schools of Medieval arms are known to surely have existed, and been practiced in some forms, in Scotland, as late as the 18th century, and England as late as the 17th.

Documentary evidence exists for masters of arms training students in Medieval Europe from as early as the late 12th century.

Or are you suggesting that knights learned how to fight by hitting poles buried in the ground with large sticks of Oriental grass, while scorning horses as being unsafe to practice fighting with and from?

ONe should not scorn something they give evidence they know very little about.

[Maeryk]

Take a look at the moves in Talhoffer or Fiore. There is a great deal of grappling, wrestling, throwing down your enemy. There full of blows designed to quickly incapacitate by defeating armor, breaking limbs, etc. Silly stuff like knee fighting or wraps are SCA specific not medieval. Every fighter would have to unlearn 90% of what they have been trained to do and learn how to fight safely in a whole new way.

Yes, because most medieval warriors and knights learned to fight by reading books.

No, most of them learned to fight from masters of arms, some of whom happened to write books, some of which later era books happened to survive.

Enough of these books exist, and enough documentary evidence exists from arms masters being retained by lords, that two broad schools of Medieval arms are known to surely have existed, and been practiced in some forms, in Scotland, as late as the 18th century, and England as late as the 17th.

Documentary evidence exists for masters of arms training students in Medieval Europe from as early as the late 12th century.

Or are you suggesting that knights learned how to fight by hitting poles buried in the ground with large sticks of Oriental grass, while scorning horses as being unsafe to practice fighting with and from?

ONe should not scorn something they give evidence they know very little about.

Uhh.. I think your sarcasm meter is broken.

[Leo Medii]

Uhh.. I think your sarcasm meter is broken.

ditto

[Tor Magnusson]

Take a look at the moves in Talhoffer or Fiore. There is a great deal of grappling, wrestling, throwing down your enemy. There full of blows designed to quickly incapacitate by defeating armor, breaking limbs, etc. Silly stuff like knee fighting or wraps are SCA specific not medieval. Every fighter would have to unlearn 90% of what they have been trained to do and learn how to fight safely in a whole new way.

Yes, because most medieval warriors and knights learned to fight by reading books.

No, most of them learned to fight from masters of arms, some of whom happened to write books, some of which later era books happened to survive.

Enough of these books exist, and enough documentary evidence exists from arms masters being retained by lords, that two broad schools of Medieval arms are known to surely have existed, and been practiced in some forms, in Scotland, as late as the 18th century, and England as late as the 17th.

Documentary evidence exists for masters of arms training students in Medieval Europe from as early as the late 12th century.

Or are you suggesting that knights learned how to fight by hitting poles buried in the ground with large sticks of Oriental grass, while scorning horses as being unsafe to practice fighting with and from?

ONe should not scorn something they give evidence they know very little about.

That’s like saying 500 years from now; there is a group of people who get together on the weekends to exercise. Exercise is no longer needed because of genetics and medical practices. However, this group wants the exercise and the only references they have are some Richard Simmons workout videos…. Now, one can’t deny the fact that Richard Simmons knows something about exercise and that he may be an expert on Aerobic exercise…. But since Richard never did a Bench Press or a Squat that those aren’t valid exercises.

Who says that Talhoffer is not the Richard Simmons of his time period?

[Leo Medii]

this thread will soon be awesomesauce.

[Maeryk]

this thread will soon be awesomesauce.

It's already beyond that.

It's rapidly heading for magic-cats assness.

[Leo Medii]

swiss family ass hatness?

[Strongbow]

Also pre-being totally encased in armour, when the back of the head was only covered in chain, the back of the head was a great target......

Swords don't penetrate mail very well. In-close like that, you be better off throwing a pommel to the fave.

[James B.]

Second, I cannot _imagine_ what a non-choreographed live-steel melee with 2000 people would look like, nor can I imagine the line of ambulances leading away. (Caveat: THis is with people who may have only been "training" for a month or two, just enough to be "Safe" to themselves on the field. not established groups like those in Europe who do this regularly

We called it the battle of Hastings and it had 3000 fighters, 150-200 horses, 200-300 archers

Here are some pictures: http://www.historiclife.com/Events/Norm ... gs2006.htm

As to the SCA being the only ones to hit full force I would think we are well past that debate with the full harness full force steel groups with videos all over the web.

[Leo Medii]

I wonder if that would be legal if I put a thrusting tip on my pommels. I don't want it to be a "telling blow"but it DAMN well would be fun to do!

[Maeryk]

Second, I cannot _imagine_ what a non-choreographed live-steel melee with 2000 people would look like, nor can I imagine the line of ambulances leading away. (Caveat: THis is with people who may have only been "training" for a month or two, just enough to be "Safe" to themselves on the field. not established groups like those in Europe who do this regularly

We called it the battle of Hastings and it had 3000 fighters, 150-200 horses, 200-300 archers

Here are some pictures: http://www.historiclife.com/Events/Norm ... gs2006.htm

As to the SCA being the only ones to hit full force I would think we are well past that debate with the full harness full force steel groups with videos all over the web.

Were you guys really swinging at SCA force levels for that, though?

That's what I'm talking about.

There's a HUGE difference (at least I have been led to believe) in the training levels between full-harness full-power groups and "can you kinda block? Good. Can you die defensively? Good. You are authorized to fight, go have fun" that we do.

[InsaneIrish]

I wonder if that would be legal if I put a thrusting tip on my pommels. I don't want it to be a "telling blow"but it DAMN well would be fun to do!

no please no......I've been on the receiving end of the "pommel thrusting tip" all it does is tick you off because you think the guy just hit you will a pommel on purpose.

[Sinister_Theo]

While fun to speculate on techniques the only way to reenact history as accurately as possible, is to follow only what has been uncovered through exploration and research of a chosen era.

The LH groups perform an amazing service in keeping the history"alive" as it were.

The SCA is a great place for speculation and many "what ifs" in fighting and costuming techniques.

Both provide a fun exercise of the mind and should be appreciated as such. If not I will replace Leo's sticks with swords and let him run rampant. (insert mellow but humorous emote here)

[Leo Medii]

Excellence demands no compromises

Damn skippy.

[chef de chambre]

Take a look at the moves in Talhoffer or Fiore. There is a great deal of grappling, wrestling, throwing down your enemy. There full of blows designed to quickly incapacitate by defeating armor, breaking limbs, etc. Silly stuff like knee fighting or wraps are SCA specific not medieval. Every fighter would have to unlearn 90% of what they have been trained to do and learn how to fight safely in a whole new way.

Yes, because most medieval warriors and knights learned to fight by reading books.

No, most of them learned to fight from masters of arms, some of whom happened to write books, some of which later era books happened to survive.

Enough of these books exist, and enough documentary evidence exists from arms masters being retained by lords, that two broad schools of Medieval arms are known to surely have existed, and been practiced in some forms, in Scotland, as late as the 18th century, and England as late as the 17th.

Documentary evidence exists for masters of arms training students in Medieval Europe from as early as the late 12th century.

Or are you suggesting that knights learned how to fight by hitting poles buried in the ground with large sticks of Oriental grass, while scorning horses as being unsafe to practice fighting with and from?

ONe should not scorn something they give evidence they know very little about.

Deleted silliness

Who says that Talhoffer is not the Richard Simmons of his time period?

The martial artists who have studied OTHER effective martial arts techniques, and who have studied the rest of the German school, and those who have studied the material in general -

Who, in the end, conclude it was an effective form of KILLING other people, that bears a lot of close comparison to OTHER well understood KILLING techniques.

Notice, in my post, I said nothing about "wrap shots", or any other peculiar SCAisim, I merely responded to somebody who is apparently clueless regarding Historical Western Martial arts, and who Dismissed, out of hand,m and in ignorance, the entire genre.

[Maeryk]

As to the "money shots" not working, I just do not buy that argument. People would definitely discover that they needed to be more aware of edge alignment, but that's a different thing. Human anatomy doesn't change when you change what you're holding, which means what I can deliver effectively with a 3-4 pound piece of rattan sword simulator, I can repeat with a similar steel sword.

Bear with me a moment, Your Grace, and allow me to explain my reasoning:

_if_ we went to live steel, then the armor standard would obviously move to full plate or something close to it, at least for safety reasons.

If that happened, a number of the shots, like a faceplate "tink" which are now money shots for a number of people, would be utterly useless. I doubt we could continue to pretend we were wearing leather and chain, and open faced helms anymore, as that would just be silly. (It's silly now, I think, but that is another of Glen's patented worm cans).

That is what I meant. Not that a wrap would be useless.. the ass is the hardest place to armor, and the easiest place for a wrap to come in with FROM GOD power.. I cannot believe that they weren't used in period for that very reason.. take out a guys glute and he's not chasing you anywhere for a while.

But I think some very "SCA" shots, like the scorpion, the flat snap to the faceplate, and goofy woofty ofside whippe crap would rapidly become useless.

[James B.]

Were you guys really swinging at SCA force levels for that, though?

That's what I'm talking about.

Different constraints for a different game.

Also the full force thing is a funny debate. The SCA is using a stick and creates mass though it's combat movement that a sword does not give nor need to do it's job.

[Tor Magnusson]

Deleted silliness

Who says that Talhoffer is not the Richard Simmons of his time period?

Come on Chef, I worked hard on that silliness............. My only real problem with the whole "Well it's not in Talhoffer" so it didn't happen argument, is that nobody alive knows...... Nobody can say that a "wrap" was never thrown, that's pure BS, we don't know... To say that nobody ever fought from their knees, pure BS, I am sure people got knocked over and could only get back as far as their knees.....

The whole it's not in Talhoffer therefore it's not real was the point of my silliness.....

[Leo Medii]

Also the full force thing is a funny debate.

I agree. It took me a looong time to get used to powering it down for SCA fighting. That and altering the follow through and placement of what I call the "endpoint mark" of where I am swinging. In a real fight, I "imagine" the end of the blow about three feet from where it would actually strike and in the SCA I have to change that "mark" to 2" from point of contact.