The Armour Archive

Back a few weeks ago Aaron Schnatterly was asking about turn welted shoes which I happened to be making a pair. I promised to take photos and I did so here they are for those interested ins seeing the peices and steps:

All images at http://www.historiclife.com/HistoricalClothing/15th.htm

Finished shoes:

Those look very, very nice. Thanks for posting these - have some similar projects running through the corridors of my mind...

Those came out very nice. Were you thinking about attaching clump soles to them?

I think the term clump sole is only used for a patch; however this pair does have 2 soles. The welt is a turn welt and a second sole is attached to the welt like so:



There is also a heel reinforcement; I made these for a member of Lord Grey’s and I spent the extra time on these to make them last longer. The heel reinforcement will help keep the upper intact as the heel is the typical blow out point and the turn welt will make it easy to replace the outer sole when it starts to go so I do not have to remake his shoes over and over again.

Thanks, that is just what I was wondering.

James, did you run a groove for those stitches ? I can't be sure from the pics. If one does lay the stitches in a groove and then taps them down with a hammer, it helps get them down out of harm's way.

When they stand proud of the leather they will wear out much faster.

I did groove the bottom of the sole forthe stitching for that exact reason.

I was upset a few weeks ago because I bought a groover a few months ago and was having a hard time finding it when I needed to finish the shoes and found it by chance one day looking for some wool.

James B. wrote:I did groove the bottom of the sole forthe stitching for that exact reason.

I was upset a few weeks ago because I bought a groover a few months ago and was having a hard time finding it when I needed to finish the shoes and found it by chance one day looking for some wool.

chuckle... My tools do that kind of thing to me *all* the time. My edge slicker is absolutely notorious for taking vacations.

Kilkenny wrote:chuckle... My tools do that kind of thing to me *all* the time. My edge slicker is absolutely notorious for taking vacations.

Man, how do they do that? I lose about an hour a day looking for the tool I just put down - and it can't be outside of a 6-foot arc in front of me. Frustrating.

Rivet setters are the worse.

James, If I get up to Alexandria sometime, can you teach me to do that?

Those are killer.

Christopher

I am moving to Ashburn next month but the answer is yes. I plan to be selling clothing at Sapphire Joust and could bring a pair to work on if you are going to be there.

RenJunkie wrote:James, If I get up to Alexandria sometime, can you teach me to do that?

Those are killer.

Christopher

what? how to lose your tools?

Well, I guess I should let you get moved...lol. I remember doing that last summer. Wouldn't have been able to help ayone do anything...

Enjoy.

Thanks,
Christopher

This gentleman has a lot of good cobbling info.

http://wherearetheelves.blogspot.com/

William de Wyke, a fine courteous and cunning wight.

RenJunkie wrote:Well, I guess I should let you get moved...lol. I remember doing that last summer. Wouldn't have been able to help ayone do anything...

Christopher

To make it worse I am moving into an apartment in three weeks and waiting for a new home to be finished only to move again Until I am in my new home a settled (July-November delivery window) I cannot host folks as Kim and I are renting a small place on the in between. However my offer still stands on Sapphire Joust if you are going.

The link Robert posted is handy too; the guy makes great looking shoes; his patterns are coming from Stepping Through Time.

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:

Kilkenny wrote:chuckle... My tools do that kind of thing to me *all* the time. My edge slicker is absolutely notorious for taking vacations.

Man, how do they do that? I lose about an hour a day looking for the tool I just put down - and it can't be outside of a 6-foot arc in front of me. Frustrating.

No, the worst is when I lose something at Pennsic. There is only 140sqft. in our tent, and it is all visible (Norman). I ask my fiancee, and she comes in, two seconds later points "there" and walks away. I have learned it saves me time and frustration just to ask.

I may have to now.

Any chance you'll be bringing your jacks with you?

Christopher

RenJunkie wrote:Any chance you'll be bringing your jacks with you?

I could bring them if you want to take a look; I plan to wear 14th century at the event but that does not mean I cannot bring the jacks for you to see.

After finally thinking I figured out what was going on with this whole "welted" thing, I come in here, pull up the picture to show my fiancee, and realize what I was suggesting was completely off base. The real answer was so much easier, I am ashamed it took me so long to realize it. Thanks for the answer and diagram, James.

Kilkenny wrote:James, did you run a groove for those stitches ? ... If one does lay the stitches in a groove and then taps them down with a hammer, it helps get them down out of harm's way.

The technique I was taught was not to cut a groove (which removes stock), but to cut a shallow angle slit. Done right, the stitches are recessed in the slit. The flap of the slit covers the stitches to protect them, and a little gentle persuasion with a mallet afterward all but makes the seam disappear.

Hope this helps... AoC

carlyle wrote:The technique I was taught was not to cut a groove (which removes stock), but to cut a shallow angle slit. Done right, the stitches are recessed in the slit. The flap of the slit covers the stitches to protect them, and a little gentle persuasion with a mallet afterward all but makes the seam disappear.

I have read about that technique also but I think it was used later than the middle ages; I will have to look at the books on later period shoes and see if any of them use the angle slit instead of a groove.

James B. wrote:I have read about that technique also but I think it was used later than the middle ages; I will have to look at the books on later period shoes and see if any of them use the angle slit instead of a groove.

My understanding is that the whole application of a welted sole is late -- certainly after the period implied by the design you chose. I may be wrong, but I thought that grooved-and-stitched-thru as discussed is a development of machine assembly. The closest you get is a clump sole (already noted as a repair, not a primary design characteristic), and that would be tunnel-stitched. I was just trying to recommend a hand technique that might better protect the stitching.


Sincerely... AoC

Turn welts apear in the early 15th century with an extent example dated to around 1430. Almost all shoes are welted or turn welted in the 16th century.

James B. wrote:Turn welts apear in the early 15th century with an extent example dated to around 1430. Almost all shoes are welted or turn welted in the 16th century.

I don't dispute that. The presence of the welt in the 15th C., however, is not to attach the sole; that is still turned with the upper (suspicion is that the welt is a technique to relieve stress on the seam, thereby making it both more durable and waterproof). I think that welted outer soles (stitching the sole to an inset welt) is a phenomenon that doesn't appear until the 16th and later.

With respect,

Alfred of Carlyle

carlyle wrote:

James B. wrote:Turn welts apear in the early 15th century with an extent example dated to around 1430. Almost all shoes are welted or turn welted in the 16th century.

I don't dispute that. The presence of the welt in the 15th C., however, is not to attach the sole; that is still turned with the upper (suspicion is that the welt is a technique to relieve stress on the seam, thereby making it both more durable and waterproof). I think that welted outer soles (stitching the sole to an inset welt) is a phenomenon that doesn't appear until the 16th and later.

With respect,

Alfred of Carlyle

Marc has them at post-1480.

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... SLIST5.HTM

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Maeryk. I agree that Marc has done the historic shoemaking community an invaluable service; but despite the title, the page you posted is all about 16th C. shoes and later (at least, those with explicit provenence). Yes, these are all representative of post-medieval shoes with fully-welted outer soles. But I don't see where it speaks to James original concerns (attaching an outer sole to a 15th C. upper), or where it contradicts/supercedes anything I've posted. I must be missing something; perhaps you'ld care to elaborate?

Confused... AoC

carlyle wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Maeryk. I agree that Marc has done the historic shoemaking community an invaluable service; but despite the title, the page you posted is all about 16th C. shoes and later (at least, those with explicit provenence). Yes, these are all representative of post-medieval shoes with fully-welted outer soles. But I don't see where it speaks to James original concerns (attaching an outer sole to a 15th C. upper), or where it contradicts/supercedes anything I've posted. I must be missing something; perhaps you'ld care to elaborate?

Confused... AoC

Backin you up, is all. Marc says that (at least on the Ypres shoe write-up) welted is post 1480.

Nothin more, and certainly not questioning you.

From Marc's site:

Turned-Welt Construction (Turned Welt; Turnwelt)

A transitional form of a shoe between the randed turnshoe, and the modern welted shoe, appearing c.1400. A turnshoe which has a strip of leather, called a Welt and wider than a Rand, sewn between the vamp and the insole, to which a second, thicker sole is attached [Thornton/Swann, 1983]

Turn welt The rand is sewn between upper and sole of a turnshoe, but is made extra broad so that a second sole can be stitched on; the rand will show two rows of stitch holes if used in this way and is then called a turn welt. [Goubitz, 2001]

James B. wrote:From Marc's site:

Turned-Welt Construction (Turned Welt; Turnwelt)

A transitional form of a shoe between the randed turnshoe, and the modern welted shoe, appearing c.1400. A turnshoe which has a strip of leather, called a Welt and wider than a Rand, sewn between the vamp and the insole, to which a second, thicker sole is attached [Thornton/Swann, 1983]

Turn welt The rand is sewn between upper and sole of a turnshoe, but is made extra broad so that a second sole can be stitched on; the rand will show two rows of stitch holes if used in this way and is then called a turn welt. [Goubitz, 2001]

Perhaps what you and Alfred are dealing with is a terminology confusion?

Maybe so; a turn welt is between the upper and sole where a welt is on the outside and the shoe is not turned at all. Welts are not seen until the 16th century but turn welts are seen in the early 15th century. Turnwelts are the same tech as a rand which is seen as early as the 13th century maybe the late 12th I would have to check my books.

Yes, we are talking about the same thing. I tried to validate soles attached to rands long ago for 14th C. footwear (I, too, wanted more durable and replaceable outer soles that would hold up to the abuse of SCA activities). In my research, though, the connection proved tenuous -- but that was over 15 years ago, so better information may have since come to light.

Even if there is earlier evidence, it would not appear to be the majority trend (in England, France, and Burgundy, at least), so I would still be inclined to err conservatively and keep to a turned outer sole through the end of the 15th C. After that time, true welted shoes (uppers shaped over a form and then attached to an inner sole or rand which, in turn, is stitched to an outer sole) become much more common and easier to provenence as a widely-implemented method of construction.

Hope this helps... AoC

I got nothing on 14th century turn welts only 15th century.

James B. wrote:I got nothing on 14th century turn welts only 15th century.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I was only commenting on how tenuous the evidence for even 15th C. turn welts are (assuming that the authors are, in fact, suggesting outer soles attached to rands, rather than referring to the existence of the rands themselves). And if you are going to pursue this construction method, the soles would most likely still be attached with a tunnel stitch, rather than stitched through and recessed in a groove. Still, if you do want to stitch through, sewing the stitches in a slit is a hand technique I learned from the Williamsburg folks. While not documentable to the era you are portraying (at least, as far as I know), it is at least a proven method for protecting the stitches.

BTW, this is in no way a comment on the work you did, or even a direct criticism of the style you have chosen. The images you posted are a truly fine effort. I have some appreciation for how hard this is, and you deserve to be proud. Your past posts, however, lead me to believe that you prefer to be careful in representing common, rather than exceptional, cultural artifacts. To this end, I only meant to offer some small information gleaned from my own past work and research in this same area.

Best of luck with the next pair, whatever you decide!

All my best... AoC

Kilkenny wrote:

James B. wrote:I did groove the bottom of the sole forthe stitching for that exact reason.

I was upset a few weeks ago because I bought a groover a few months ago and was having a hard time finding it when I needed to finish the shoes and found it by chance one day looking for some wool.

chuckle... My tools do that kind of thing to me *all* the time. My edge slicker is absolutely notorious for taking vacations.

Have you ever had a tool disappear and be gone for months (for which you have turned upsidown a number of places look for) only to have it turn up in you tool box again. (I swear my girlfriend had to be messing with me, but she swears she wasnt.)

James - Very nice!
I have been looking at shoes and pattens trying to figure out how to make a more sturdy (and supportive) shoe ...