Heraldry Question

Hospitaller@Acre · Post by **Hospitaller@Acre** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:55 am

What date approximately were furs started to be used in heraldry?
Thanks,
Rannulf

AriAnson · Post by **AriAnson** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:19 am

A flip through a few of my books shows them as dated early as 1270, 1295, 1326, 1325, 1334, and 1322.

All of those were ermine or vair.

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:29 pm

You beat me to it.

I've seen vairy designs dating back to the mid 13th c., not much beyond the general birth of heraldry.

Effingham

Boner · Post by **Boner** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:04 am

Effingham,

My group is circa 1200AD. Would heraldic devices have been around then? If they were are we talking the basic heraldic shapes or were animal shapes around then, specifically boars heads...

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:45 am

This would have been very early. Definitely there would have been some semblance of heralfry on the shields. The question is what rules would have been in place at the time.

Among the earliest clear examples of heraldry are on the seals of Richard I and Geoffrey of Anjou, so you're fine with heraldry on your gear.

Effingham

AriAnson · Post by **AriAnson** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:34 pm

1200 is fine for heraldry, though it was fairly early. It becomes harder to document specific charges and designs because there was less heraldc organization and fewer surviving rolls, but Foster's The Dictionary of Heraldry gives a fairly good endorsement of heraldry in the end of the 12th century:

Althought there is evidence that Heraldic bearings were assuming a definite form in the reign of Stephen (1135-54) it is not a little remarkable that Richard 1 is the first English king who is known to have adopted an heraldic bearing. One his great seal (1189) he bore the two lyons for the Duchies of Normandy and of the Poictou or Maine. n his second great seal (1198) he added a thrd lyon for the Duchy of Aquitaine, or, as some say, for Anjou; this has since been our national arms of dominion; according to Sir Henry Spelman the earlier kings of England had marks and tokens painted on their shields, which they altered at pleasure. In this connection it would be interesting to know on what authority, if any, Brooke, York Herald, described the Deering Roll as "the names and armes of those Knightes as weare wt Kinge Richard the first assigge of Acon or Acres," 1191"

In England, heraldry was just starting to become formal, where previously men simply chose a device and used it.

There was a Sir John Whyght of Norfolk that used 3 boars heads in 1270.