Feedback on an 11th c. Saxon soft kit

[Alric of Drentha]

I've been slowly putting together an Anglo Saxon kit over the past year, and I'd love to get some feedback on it. It's far from complete - the next thing I want to do is replace the belt with something more period.

The tunic's linen, everything else is wool. The penannular brooch is from (of all the unlikely places) North Africa.

Thanks!
-Alric

[Kotek]

Looks great. All you need now is a hat

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Why the belt pouch? Not sure I recall anything about them wearing pouches...then again they didn't need inhalers, cell phones, change, etc on them for the walk down Merchant's row.

[nathan]

Hi there i would agree on the pouch, perhaps you could migrate it to under your tunic or make yourself a shoulder bag (such as the one on the Harley Psalter, see http://www.regia.org/leatwork.htm for a proposed reconstruction). Yes the belt is rather wide, PM me if you would like some ides of suppliers that may be able to help you out with a buckle & strap-end.

Looks good at 10 feet though the trousers may be a little loose (the evidence does seem to suggest tightly fitting), the tunic could be a fraction longer (you end to see tunics ending just below the knee (basically where your wraps end).

One thing that does seem to be missing is decoration, a little tablet-braid around your cuffs would be a very nice addition.

The cloak could be tied (in place of the pennanular), as seen on the cloak of cnut in the The Liber Vitae manuscript c. 1031 A.D. http://www.trin.cam.ac.uk/sdk13/MSS/LiberVitae1.jpg, or you might want to go with a disk brooch. The general feeling seems to be that pennanulars were less commonly used in saxon england (in favor of disk brooches). Again i'm being picky here, others may not agree with my take on this.

If you want detailed feedback the best thing to do would be to take images of each item. But on the whole this is a very nice presentation that from what i can see would pass muster (withthe belt fixed, minus the pouch and assuming the garments are all hand-finished) for a new member of Regia (for example).

HTH
N.

[Ceawlin Alreding]

I ilke it. Get a bigger stick. Normans don't fall off horses all by themselves

[Starn]

Then once you've gotten a bigger stick all you'll need to do is put a spear head on it! What could be simpler!

I think most of what needs doing has been covered, certainly the belt, bag (or a smallish draw string pouch worn under our tunic) and cloak pin are the main points. For the cloak pin look for something like the strickland brooche as an example.

If you want to add to your kit a woolen over tunic would make those cold evenings more pleasant. Make it a bit longer though as was said, the longer your tunic the more fashionable you were. My own tunic comes down to my ankles when unbelted but when I'm fighting or working around the LHE it gets rucked up over the belt to knee height.

[Doug Confere]

Haha Alric! Fancy meeting you here.

You may have changed it since then, but when I met you in person it was your trousers that stuck out most to me.

But still, fantabulous kit!

[Alric of Drentha]

Thanks for the replies - very helpful!

Doug: yeah, my pants at Ragnarok were bad. I've since made a pair of wool Thorsberg trousers (pictured here - not quite right for an Anglo Saxon, but moving in the right direction), and am planning on making a second pair soon so I can fix all the mistakes I made with this pair.

[Engenulf]

I think your kit looks great! As far a critiques go. I agree with nathan who mentioned wearing the pouch under your tunic or you could gather some woolen scrap if you have any and sew a haversack and lengthen the hem of the tunic to just below the knee. I also agree with nathan that you should make the legs of your trousers a little narrower or even make single legged hosen out of them.
I am going to disagree with Kotek. You most certainly do not NEED a hat. The only hats most commonly shown in Anglo-Saxon manuscripts are the "phryigan" types and the high pointed caps worn by members of the Witan. The problem with the phrygian style cap is that no one is sure what they really represent. Are they a stylized depiction of earlier classical art. Are they hats? Are they helms? Besides, going bare headed is also depicted in the manuscripts of the time.
If you MUST have protection from the sun than make a linen hood. Like hats, there is no real evidence for hoods commonly being worn in Anglo Saxon England besides monastic traditions and linguistic evidence but at least we know that they were available at the time. The only example of a hood from the northern European regions during the early middle ages that I know of is from Denmark. So considering the Danes settled heavily in areas of England and interbred with the Anglo-Saxon population I wouldn't imagine a hood style from Denmark as being too out of place. A pattern for the hedeby hood can be found here http://www.vikingsonline.org.uk/resourc ... nu-heddeby

Chris Knight.

[Kotek]

I didn't mean he absolutely NEEDED a hat. Life just looks better with a hat...

[white mountain armoury]

I am not well studied in Angl Saxon clothing so I cant speak with authority on a belt pouch, but a belt pouch was part of the Sutton Hoo find, well the pouch was gone but its fittings remained.
An early Brittanic Saxon find from Dorchester has belt and bag hardware.
A womans find from Swallowcliff Down In Wiltshire contained a small satchel type bag worn on the hip.
Coin purses were worn but are not often depicted in art as it is assumed they would be worn in a way to hide them somewhat although one can be seen in the Harley Psalter.
Special items of religious importance might be worn in a pouch around the neck.
I believe there was a find in Rome of Saxon belt pouch "tags"
I cant say if the pouch you are wearing is of the corect form but a pouch or bag of some type worn on the belt is not out of place.
While they didnt carry cell phones and inhalers they would have carried fire steels, coins etc.
There is evidence of a ring style pouch for women, not sure if it would have been worn by men.
Check out "Dress in Anglo Saxon England by Gale R Owen-Crocker.
It has alot of excellent information.

[nathan]

I am not well studied in Angl Saxon clothing so I cant speak with authority on a belt pouch, but a belt pouch was part of the Sutton Hoo find, well the pouch was gone but its fittings remained.

It's rather early for the C11th though isn't it? Plus no guarantees it wasn't a bag (it is rather large).

Coin purses were worn but are not often depicted in art as it is assumed they would be worn in a way to hide them somewhat although one can be seen in the Harley Psalter.

If they were not depicted how do we know they were worn (Scandinavian examples do not Anglo-Saxon evidence make). Certainly i think we agree here, wearing it under your tunic is a good idea.

I believe there was a find in Rome of Saxon belt pouch "tags"

These tags are associated with a find of a large number of small pouches of cash (peters pence) sent to rome as tithe. No evidence I'm aware of suggests that they were worn on a belt (i think they were found in the remnants of a strongbox).

I cant say if the pouch you are wearing is of the corect form but a pouch or bag of some type worn on the belt is not out of place. While they didnt carry cell phones and inhalers they would have carried fire steels, coins etc.

I would challenge that assumption ... what we don't tend to see from the earlier anglo-saxon burial record is everybody having clumps of such objects at a pouch-level in the grave (it is seen in some cases as you have noted, we even get the occasional ivory loop that formed the mouth of the pouch, predominately female). Most of the time those objects could be somewhere in the home and only carried if you are going a long way.

Carrying coins in a pouch along with other stuff is a good way to loose them (speak from experience here), given their value 1d = 15 live chickens or 5 gallons loosing small change would be bad.

Pictures is of course all we have for later on, i'm not aware on any examples of pouches from anglo-saxon england (certainly never noticed one on the Harley Psalter, you got the illo handy).

It's worth noting here (before we scare Alric off) that teh pouch debate has raged for a number of years in Anglo-Saxon LH circles. I tend to err on the basis that absence of illustration indicates that they were not commonly visibly worn. I actually prefer a satchel (took me a while to get used to it) i can get a days food, my jewellery-making kit, anvil and hammers, bags of scrap/hack silver and coin (and my car-keys, wallet and emergency first aid kit where as a pouch will handle my car keys and a wallet.

3d
N.

[Alric of Drentha]

It's worth noting here (before we scare Alric off) that teh pouch debate has raged for a number of years in Anglo-Saxon LH circles.

Oh, not at all - I'm loving this. Thanks, again.

[white mountain armoury]

I had a nice long post Nathan, and the archive ate it.
I am in agreement with you, my information covered a wide time span.
To be honest I did not even see he had posted a date for his portrayal.
Certainly what was in fashion at one time could be grossly out of fashion years later.
I did assume by the photo that he was a "traveling" saxon as opposed to a stay at home saxon, walking stick and all that so it seemed to me a logical assumption he would want a "place for his stuff" and pockets just would not do.
I also do not know when a pouch becomes a bag, is it size related ?
Is one mans pouch another mans bag?
Certainly when away from home something must be used to carry the "small" stuff needed in life, some type of container attatched to ones self seems in order but I am not learned enough to know what form it would take.
It does seem logical that you would not advertise that you had valuables by wearing what ever it is that contains them in plain site.
Much like the biker wallet on a chain, to me it just advertises that you have something of value, the hidden money belt is the smarter choice.
Although if I were taking a photo of myself to show a portrayal like above I might position everything so people could see the completeness of the kit.

[nathan]

I also do not know when a pouch becomes a bag, is it size related ?
Is one mans pouch another mans bag?

Sorry to hear your post got ate it's never fun when that happens.

From my perspective if it's worn on a belt or round the neck it's a pouch, if it's suspended by a strap from the shoulder it's a bag/satchel. But there is an element of potatoh/potahto here i suspect with some of the experts.

And i agree that there is a reasonable chance that your real portable valuables would be worn in a small cloth bag hidden somewhere in your clothing.

I got the same impression as you, travelling Saxon, hence the suitability of a nice big shoulder bag.