Pavillion Question

[Tor Magnusson]

So after 20 some odd years, I am finally getting ready to take the plunge. Part of what attracted to me to the SCA was the camping aspect of it all... So I am looking for a recommendation for a "period" pavillion. I am not going for a "persona" pavillion. I want something that is economical, good looking, strong and will fit my needs... I want to go all out and build all sorts of cool funiture and such... The whole Pimp My Pavillion thing...

We are a family of three, but most of the times it will probably just be me. So I am looking for recomendations.

Thanks in advance.

[Maeryk]

Start with Panther and go from there. They can make you damn near anything you want, but I'm _HELLA_ happy with their straight walled pavilion. Packs small (for a pavilion) uses S hooks for the walls, so doors can be anywhere, and hooks can be anywhere (unlike tentsmiths, who stitch D rings to the top and snap hooks to the walls).

Your limit is your wallet, and how much space you want to take up.

one thing I will say: Make SURE you work a sunshade into your budget. If you don't have one, you'll want one.

[Tor Magnusson]

straight walled

Maeryk, which one is that? I was looking at their catalog today? What size too? I have never been to Pennsic, but I am hoping to go next year, how much room do you get at Pennsic to setup?

[InsaneIrish]

Well, more info would be appreciated.


But, for 1-2 people and most normal events (read as 2-3 days) I recommend a wall tent. Not exactly period but it IS cost effective:

http://www.blockaderunner.com/Catalog/catpg31.htm

Large Wall Tent:
10x12 with 4ft. walls.

The wall tent is "technically" out of period, but it is canvas, priced right, and space economical.

[Guy Dawkins]

And make sure that sunshade is waterproofed.

A painter's tarp make a fine sunshade but is a sieve in the rain. (Ask me how I know.)

[Saritor]

The wall tent is "technically" out of period, but it is canvas, priced right, and space economical.

Wall tents are period. You can see them in the various woodcuts of English armies in the 16th century (Henry VIII is what I'm thinking of primarily). I'm sure they're seen elsewhere, too.

Now...whether they're period for your persona is a whole 'nother deal.

They're fine for mine!

[Maeryk]

straight walled

Maeryk, which one is that? I was looking at their catalog today? What size too? I have never been to Pennsic, but I am hoping to go next year, how much room do you get at Pennsic to setup?

Erm.. I forget what it's called.

Here's what I have: 16x18 7 foot walls, with the dags (which I hate), and the "standard" roof pitch.. so I guess the roof is like.. 11 feet high? Something like that, in the center.

It's easy to put up (I can do it by myself, with some effort), and with all the ropes run and the walls staked, it's bombproof.

i also have the sunshade that runs off the ridgepole pins, and off the wide side of the tent.

http://www.pantherprimitives.com/products/tent5.jpg

That one, but with different geometry.

The "belled" walls work fine.. and are great for "hiding" stuff in, but I have, and like, the straight walls.

pennsic typically works out to 250Sqf per person. (less, depending on your particular camp and situation). So I put four people into that tent, and come out just about right, figuring for ropes and such. And I'm fairly tight-roped at that.

[InsaneIrish]

Maeryk that is their Marque Pavillion.

My knight has there16x16 Regent and loves it. Probably what I am going to upgrade to soon.

[Maeryk]

The only thing that bugs me about the regent is the center pole.

My layout always seems to work out better with the dual uprights than the single centerpole.

(COurse, I have a canopy bed, giant trunk, "dressing area", cabinet, dome tent for daughter, pack n play, and wall shelf (hangs on the poles) in there)

[InsaneIrish]

Yeah you certainly have to "build/buy" furniture for the tent you have. And yeah, a 4 poster canopy style bed would not work all that well in the regent. However, a "misquito net" style canopy could work.

Depending on WHAT you want IN your tent will determine what tent you get.

For my wife and I, and all our stuff we could last all pennsic in a 16 x 16 regent. It is ALOT roomier on the inside than you think.

But, YMMV

[AriAnson]

The center pole Marquees and rounds are annoying. The "Trader" is really nice, and space efficient.

[Maeryk]

Yeah you certainly have to "build/buy" furniture for the tent you have. And yeah, a 4 poster canopy style bed would not work all that well in the regent. However, a "misquito net" style canopy could work.

Depending on WHAT you want IN your tent will determine what tent you get.

For my wife and I, and all our stuff we could last all pennsic in a 16 x 16 regent. It is ALOT roomier on the inside than you think.

But, YMMV

One of my friends has one. It _IS_ a roomy tent, no doubt. (All of em are, really. Even the tall A frames are roomy, if you get the right size).

[InsaneIrish]

One of my friends has one. It _IS_ a roomy tent, no doubt. (All of em are, really. Even the tall A frames are roomy, if you get the right size).

I want to get a dark blue one and call it the Tardis.

That is what I felt like when I stepped into my Knight's Regent.

[Kilkenny]

Well, more info would be appreciated.


But, for 1-2 people and most normal events (read as 2-3 days) I recommend a wall tent. Not exactly period but it IS cost effective:

http://www.blockaderunner.com/Catalog/catpg31.htm

Large Wall Tent:
10x12 with 4ft. walls.

The wall tent is "technically" out of period, but it is canvas, priced right, and space economical.

I was under the impression that the "wall tent" design went as far back as Rome.

As to center poles, some folks like them, some don't. I happen to really love my Past Tents wagon wheel, but might feel differently if it were smaller and the center pole mattered to the available space.

If you ask around you will get many different opinions about manufacturers - and about details such as S hooks versus snaps and so forth. Personally, I prefer hooks to snaps, not because of door placement but because I find snapping into the d-rings much more difficult than just slipping a hook over a cord. My Past Tents uses a heavy galvanized wire, doubled and formed into a hook and riveted to the wall top. The rope the hook catches is stitched to the roof, with "loops" evenly spaced for the hooks to catch. You can't slide the walls around, but the rope never droops. It's a very positive system of attaching walls to roof that is very simple to work with.

It is largely in the details of construction - how are seams finished, what canvas is used, what are the ropes made of and how are any finished loops in the ropes finished, etc. - that the real differences in quality appear.

[InsaneIrish]

I was under the impression that the "wall tent" design went as far back as Rome.

You are correct. I should have clarified. The wall tent I posted is technically out of period. A Roman Wall tent is not out of period. Although a Roman wall tent looks differently than mine.

Basically The roman wall has much shorter walls and no side poles.

[Maeryk]

I was under the impression that the "wall tent" design went as far back as Rome.

You are correct. I should have clarified. The wall tent I posted is technically out of period. A Roman Wall tent is not out of period. Although a Roman wall tent looks differently than mine.

Basically The roman wall has much shorter walls and no side poles.

I'm all for using "period" tentage whenever possible. I will point out, however, that if you get a "period" tent (IE, no side poles, designed for crows-foot roping) that you also have a "side pole" option for Pennsic and equally crowded events.

I know someone with a Landsknecht Pavilion (two round ends, taller central area) that is designed to be crowsfooted, and there is no way they will _EVER_ get the space necessary at Pennsic to run the ropes, unless they pre-reg 30 ghosts themselves.

They've even been somewhat crowded at smaller "local" events where the space restrictions aren't nearly as high.

[^]

I was under the impression that the "wall tent" design went as far back as Rome.

Like most things they come in and out of use for whatever reason but as a general rule the wall tent is not in use in western Europe from 1200-1500. Much like cups in 13th century England, just disapear. I do however think that every major canvas tent style can be documented in continental Europe from 500-1600. I'll put an exception in there for yurts cause I'm not sure if a yurt is actually a tent or if it can be documented to that time and place.

I should also note that I've never seen a plain canvas tent that looked out of place in a photograph of some sort of medieval activity.

[Steve S.]

'm all for using "period" tentage whenever possible. I will point out, however, that if you get a "period" tent (IE, no side poles, designed for crows-foot roping) that you also have a "side pole" option for Pennsic and equally crowded events.

This is not necessarily so. Some tents, like the round pavilions, can be constructed with an inner structure so as to eliminate the need for guy ropes.

See my tent shown on the Tentsmiths page:

http://www.tentsmiths.com/period-tents-pavilion.html

My "storm guys" are up but once the walls are staked out they could be removed. Usually it is not an issue to have 3 guys run out.

Be aware that I don't think Tentsmiths actually sells tents like my tent - mine was custom ordered and designed by me to work with a steam-bent ash hoop. I believe most of their round pavilions are designed to work with guy ropes, unless they have made a hoop to go with it.

Steve

[Maeryk]

Yabut.. there's not one whit of documentation for a spoke-wheel tent anywhere. (Least, not that I have ever seen). Even the (ONE!) extant one in a museum is crows-footed.

That's why I said.. if you are going for "absolutely medieval" make sure you have other options. Side poles are one option, (though I have seen what appears to be sidepoles in a couple of illustrations, late period) and spoke-wheels or the like are another.

[^]

Yabut.. there's not one whit of documentation for a spoke-wheel tent anywhere. (Least, not that I have ever seen). Even the (ONE!) extant one in a museum is crows-footed.

Having put up tents with the 3 ways most used today, ropes only, spokes, or side poles, I can definitely say that ropes only is much easier and faster. Something else is that most tents in medieval illustrations have steeper roofs
the most made today

But take Maeryk's advice and plan for the possibility. although a steeper roof makes for a smaller rope footprint.

[Kilkenny]

Yabut.. there's not one whit of documentation for a spoke-wheel tent anywhere. (Least, not that I have ever seen). Even the (ONE!) extant one in a museum is crows-footed.

That's why I said.. if you are going for "absolutely medieval" make sure you have other options. Side poles are one option, (though I have seen what appears to be sidepoles in a couple of illustrations, late period) and spoke-wheels or the like are another.

There's not a whole lot of decent illustration of pavillion interiors, period.

I don't get why crow's feet are taken as evidence of absence of spokes.

I have seen some illustrations that I interpret as showing spoke-wheel tents, but can't point you to any off the top of my head.

I think the gables found in the roofs of some pavillions constitute a fairly strong argument for some internal frame, as there is simply no way to produce the appearance without.

[Maeryk]

Yabut.. there's not one whit of documentation for a spoke-wheel tent anywhere. (Least, not that I have ever seen). Even the (ONE!) extant one in a museum is crows-footed.

That's why I said.. if you are going for "absolutely medieval" make sure you have other options. Side poles are one option, (though I have seen what appears to be sidepoles in a couple of illustrations, late period) and spoke-wheels or the like are another.

There's not a whole lot of decent illustration of pavillion interiors, period.

I don't get why crow's feet are taken as evidence of absence of spokes.

I have seen some illustrations that I interpret as showing spoke-wheel tents, but can't point you to any off the top of my head.

I think the gables found in the roofs of some pavillions constitute a fairly strong argument for some internal frame, as there is simply no way to produce the appearance without.

I agree. However, my thinking (and this is purely my thinking) leads me to believe a large and complicated spoke wheel vs the very easy single center pole plus ropes leads to the easiest solution often winning out.

Add to that, that _most_ of the tents we use are far larger (both in footprint, and definately in height) than those used in period (at least judging by illustrations), and it adds another factor. I'm doubtful much of anything had 7 foot (or more!) sidewalls in period.

(well, except for the silk pavilion built by King wossname, with 300 rooms and gallerys, a grand court, etc).

with the convenience of cars and such, we tend to forget (I think) that much of this stuff was packed around.. and the less you had to carry from place to place, the better.

[jester]

http://www.greydragon.org/pavilions/othertents.html

The above link has some good discussion. I've got evidence for multi-part tent poles (at least in 13th Century Spain) but I've yet to see any evidence for sidepoles or spoke/wheel structures in European tents. The Ger/Yurt was known (at least to Muslims in Spain) but was not used in Europe that I have any evidence for.

For more discussion of the Field of the Cloth of Gold take a look at this interesting picture on Flikr http://flickr.com/photos/20631910@N03/2587669416

Back to topic. Consider what you will be using your tent for. If you're going to pennsic then you want something that fits into your camp allotment. If you're traveling by yourself to events then you want something that can be set up solo. If you plan to play host to people then you want some space. what kind of vehicle do you have to transport this in? Tent poles are about as long as spears and heavier. Furniture can be built to be knock down, but it's heavy too.

The center pole round is the most common type of tent in medieval illustrations. It's also going to be the easiest to put up by yourself. After that it boils down to time and place.

[Kilkenny]

I agree. However, my thinking (and this is purely my thinking) leads me to believe a large and complicated spoke wheel vs the very easy single center pole plus ropes leads to the easiest solution often winning out.

Add to that, that _most_ of the tents we use are far larger (both in footprint, and definately in height) than those used in period (at least judging by illustrations), and it adds another factor. I'm doubtful much of anything had 7 foot (or more!) sidewalls in period.

(well, except for the silk pavilion built by King wossname, with 300 rooms and gallerys, a grand court, etc).

with the convenience of cars and such, we tend to forget (I think) that much of this stuff was packed around.. and the less you had to carry from place to place, the better.

It depends very much on the situation. For example, I doubt anyone cared about the transportation issues for The Field of the Cloth of Gold

I'll also note that trying to judge the height of a structure in period paintings, illuminations, etc., is a really tricky business, since for many of those representations, apparent size has more to do with importance than actual physical size.

The only illustrations I could find easily of the Field of the Cloth of Gold don't give nearly adequate detail of any of the pavillions, but even so it's evident that they were impressive and large structures. No doubt the staff serving all the nobility at that great festival were staying in more humble quarters.

[Maeryk]

http://www.greydragon.org/pavilions/othertents.html

The above link has some good discussion. I've got evidence for multi-part tent poles (at least in 13th Century Spain) but I've yet to see any evidence for sidepoles or spoke/wheel structures in European tents. The Ger/Yurt was known (at least to Muslims in Spain) but was not used in Europe that I have any evidence for.

For more discussion of the Field of the Cloth of Gold take a look at this interesting picture on Flikr http://flickr.com/photos/20631910@N03/2587669416

Back to topic. Consider what you will be using your tent for. If you're going to pennsic then you want something that fits into your camp allotment. If you're traveling by yourself to events then you want something that can be set up solo. If you plan to play host to people then you want some space. what kind of vehicle do you have to transport this in? Tent poles are about as long as spears and heavier. Furniture can be built to be knock down, but it's heavy too.

The center pole round is the most common type of tent in medieval illustrations. It's also going to be the easiest to put up by yourself. After that it boils down to time and place.

Do you consider Hungary, Mongolia, and Russia to be "Europe"? If so.. you have docs for Gers. (Yurts, Jerts, whatever)

[Maeryk]

I agree. However, my thinking (and this is purely my thinking) leads me to believe a large and complicated spoke wheel vs the very easy single center pole plus ropes leads to the easiest solution often winning out.

Add to that, that _most_ of the tents we use are far larger (both in footprint, and definately in height) than those used in period (at least judging by illustrations), and it adds another factor. I'm doubtful much of anything had 7 foot (or more!) sidewalls in period.

(well, except for the silk pavilion built by King wossname, with 300 rooms and gallerys, a grand court, etc).

with the convenience of cars and such, we tend to forget (I think) that much of this stuff was packed around.. and the less you had to carry from place to place, the better.

From what I've read and heard, many of the "Cloth of Gold" structures were elaborate facades built specifically for that purpose. Using it as a reference may be a sketchy bet at best.

It depends very much on the situation. For example, I doubt anyone cared about the transportation issues for The Field of the Cloth of Gold

I'll also note that trying to judge the height of a structure in period paintings, illuminations, etc., is a really tricky business, since for many of those representations, apparent size has more to do with importance than actual physical size.

The only illustrations I could find easily of the Field of the Cloth of Gold don't give nearly adequate detail of any of the pavillions, but even so it's evident that they were impressive and large structures. No doubt the staff serving all the nobility at that great festival were staying in more humble quarters.

[^]

I don't get why crow's feet are taken as evidence of absence of spokes.

I have seen some illustrations that I interpret as showing spoke-wheel tents, but can't point you to any off the top of my head.

I think the gables found in the roofs of some pavillions constitute a fairly strong argument for some internal frame, as there is simply no way to produce the appearance without.

Positive evidence is just that positive. We have positive evidence for various rope schemes. As of yet I've seen no positive evidence for spoke-wheels in tents from the period. So ropes do not imply there don't use spokes. That is derived from Ockham's Razor.

If by internal frame you mean the part that creates the gable then yes but there is no reason you couldn't put that kind of gable frame on a properly made and setup tent with ropes alone.

[Kilkenny]

If a well documented historic event is "sketchy at best", then wtf constitutes solid documentation ?

I get that it was an extraordinary circumstance and clearly atypical - it was quite intentionally an extravaganza. But - it happened, it's thoroughly documented. It would almost certainly be a mistake to argue that something built for the Field of the Cloth of Gold was a "typical" version of whatever it might have been. Doesn't change the fact that it was built.

Context. It's constantly and always about context. Sure, chances are really high that nothing Henry or Francis or their entourages had would have been typical to a landsknecht unit, but it's also pretty likely that dressed down versions *were* typical to Henry and Francis and their entourages - while still not being suited to that landsknecht unit.

We know they had bar grills in period too

[Maeryk]

If a well documented historic event is "sketchy at best", then wtf constitutes solid documentation ?

I get that it was an extraordinary circumstance and clearly atypical - it was quite intentionally an extravaganza. But - it happened, it's thoroughly documented. It would almost certainly be a mistake to argue that something built for the Field of the Cloth of Gold was a "typical" version of whatever it might have been. Doesn't change the fact that it was built.

Context. It's constantly and always about context. Sure, chances are really high that nothing Henry or Francis or their entourages had would have been typical to a landsknecht unit, but it's also pretty likely that dressed down versions *were* typical to Henry and Francis and their entourages - while still not being suited to that landsknecht unit.

We know they had bar grills in period too

We are in agreement. If you are recreating the FCOG, then by all means, go nuts. If you are a dark ages Celt.. then using that as documentation for your encampment (which is so often done, SCA-wise ((They had it, so I can use it)) ) is silly.

And, much of what might _LOOK_ like a pavilion in those illustrations might not be.. and is rather likely not "campaign gear" as most (many?) of us believe our tents/etc to be.

[Steve S.]

Of course we've been down this road before.

The most compelling thing about the ropes-only solution is 1) you see it in pictures definitively and 2) it is by far the simplest, most portable construction. In fact, you don't even need to transport the center pole if you consider you could just cut a tree of appropriate size if you needed to.

The thing about a hoop design (not spoke design) is it is the only way to achieve a truly round roof profile. Any other method - ropes or spokes - produces a polygonal profile. There are medieval illustrations of pavilions with very specifically round profiles and no ropes shown. Could it be artistic license/simplification? Sure.

The only down-side to the hoop tent is it means you have some 8-10 additional pieces of wood to carry about. This is the most damning aspect of the design.

But I find it very simple to set up and extraordinarily strong. And it stays strong and requires no adjustments of ropes to stay put in any kind of weather.

Here's mine: I specifically gave it a high pitched roof.



Steve

[^]

If the expense accounting for the Cloth of Gold is detailed enough you should be able to take that and the plans for the pavilions we have which are said to have been done for the Cloth of Gold you should have a pretty good idea of many of them.

I'm trying to recall correctly but I want to say there are some pavilion notes in a 16th century Italian tailors book or some such.

You could always make one of these in a pinch,

especially nice if the lady comes included.

[Maeryk]

If I remember correctly, there were some bigger pavilions in that very illustration, weren't there?

Much of the Siege stuff drawn in Maximilian livery features bigassed pavilions as well, but I think they are mostly marquees and regents.. not too many rounds (arming) pavilions at that point.

[^]

If I remember correctly, there were some bigger pavilions in that very illustration, weren't there?

[Milan H]

I have a Panther bell wedge. I really enjoy it, and it sleeps 2 pretty well plus garb and gear. If i were to do it all over again, i would get the one with the 8 foot ridge pole. The great thing is that there are no ropes, 3 poles and plenty of floor space and its strong as hell. It stands with 3 stakes (in the correct spots!). It also has 2 doors, and you can add a fly on very easily. I have the fly and love it as well although it, of course, requires ropes. Also the first time i set it up was solo and it took me 30 minutes; its very easy with 2 people.

Highly recommended

[Steve S.]

As was pointed out, the thing to consider when buying a tent is what you intend to put in it. If your intent is to "pimp your pavilion" as you said, you are probably looking to put a queen-sized bed in it. You want to make sure there is enough room for it, taking into account where the poles are and the slant of the walls. Our queen-sized bed won't fit in our 10' diameter round shown above.

Steve