cold steel polypropylene wasters

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We could switch to perforated plate like the cut and thrust guys. It wouldn't be that hard. Not saying that solves all the problems though.

Well it would solve a second problem, that of combat archery.
It is going to be interesting to see the impact of the broadening WMA movement and Cut and Thrust on the SCA.

[white mountain armoury]

You obviously missed the part where I said the block with the buckler twisted the blade. If the sword connects its intended target to crease and knock down the target, the dynamics are different.

Try throwing a flat snap at the head and having th point of a heater catch the flat of the blade and twist it enough to almost break your wrist.

You can believe what you want, but you will never convince me that swinging a grass club, no matter how skillfully, recreates fighting with an edged steel sword. I've had a bit of experince with both you know....

You are putting words in my mouth.
At no point did I make any such claims.
Ill steer clear of your postings if you choose to deliberatly misquote me.

[audax]

God, this gets old.

Batons are analogs for swords and have been for about, oh, 5 or 6 thousand years now. If you can swing a stick, you can swing a sword. That's why Egyptians trained with sticks, Romans trained with sticks, Medieval knights trained with sticks, kali, escrima, arnis, etc, etc ,etc.

Get. Over. It. A broken sword does not prove you can't do a flat snap with a steel sword. It just means you broke a sword. All a flat snap is a horizontal strike.

There's no big mystery behind striking with a sword any more than there's a big mystery behind an inch punch.

And, yeah, I've had experience with both.

[LOGOS]

I apologize if I misquoted you - that certainly was not my intention.

We took apart our various swords and tried to determine the reason for the break - the marks on the quillons that showed twisting were unique to the broken one. The flat snap may not have caused it, but none of us who regularly fight C&T use them and we don't break our swords. May be a coincidence....

I admit to being a bit dogmatic - if I can't find a techinique in a treatise, I try not to use it. Easier for later personas, however. Of course, as deeper scholarship exposes more, the richer the pool of techniques.

This is why I think C&T and events like the COTT and armor as worn tourneys are important - they provide an alternative to the dogma of standard SCA combat and provide people another way of looking at historical combat.

That being said, I'm not crazy about nylon wasters either. Either use steel and armor accordlingly or stick with the proven material.

[Amanda M]

The broken sword could just as easily have occurred because of a fault in the weapon. The thinking that it was purely because of technique is just a confirmational bias.

[jester]

I admit to being a bit dogmatic - if I can't find a techinique in a treatise, I try not to use it. Easier for later personas, however. Of course, as deeper scholarship exposes more, the richer the pool of techniques.

Bolding added by me. While this approach is fine, the idea that only techniques which can be documented should be used is less than optimal. If you examine the language of the manuscripts you will find unexplained 'buzz words' which are indicative of a broader pool of fighting of which the manuscripts are merely a subset. In the manuscripts we find shadows of, if not an ideal, then perhaps a greater and more general construct.

Beyond that, of course, is the fact that recreation of technique is not the only goal that combatants might embrace. Certainly for many the fine details are less important than the broader goal of stepping into a river of martial tradition that dates back millenia and striving to become worthy minor companions of those that came before us.

And now I've thoroughly derailed. My apologies.

[Vebrand]

Now what was the original reason for the post again

Brian you did this to see how many times people could derail it, admit it

I thought the horizontal strike was common in Flore and in I33? Maybe I am wrong but could have sworn I have seen it in both.

Now a stick of rattan does not act like a steel sword by any means. However as stated above; wooden clubs, whale bone, etc were used more often than steel swords. You find the documentation all through history.

Unfortunately what written documentation we can find is very limited on period fighting styles. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of techniques that were lost throughout the middle ages. I can go down list after list of cultures that we know were successful but we don't really know their fighting style. Thus we have to attempt to recreate their style using what is logical and makes common sense.

Vebrand
I think I derailed my on derailing

[bkillian]

Gees guys,
I was just posting some neat toys I bought and musing. My what an odd place the archive is.

[Baron Alejandro]

Gees guys,
I was just posting some neat toys I bought and musing. My what an odd place the archive is.

Truly.

Can I ask a dumb question? If you might think of switching over to these HPDE swords as a better or more durable simulator, why wouldn't you just go all the way to steel? I think I'm missing a point.

[co10Broek]

The good and honorable Alejandro queried:

If you might think of switching over to these HPDE swords as a better or more durable simulator, why wouldn't you just go all the way to steel? I think I'm missing a point.

Because we would have a head start??

Jean-Michel

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I would love to see something replace rattan that looked and acted more like a real sword. However there are two problems as I have been told. the first is cost as a replacement would be expensive. The second is repeat sales. Why would a business put money into developing something that would have limited repeat sales.

If it really looked and acted better then rattan then expense would have a limited impact as long as it was durable as those who want them know how much they spend on rattan yearly and would be able to decide on the math. A buisness would put money into developement because you would have a monopoly and then virtual monopoly on the product as you would have name recognition with the product.

Can I ask a dumb question? If you might think of switching over to these HPDE swords as a better or more durable simulator, why wouldn't you just go all the way to steel? I think I'm missing a point.

We have come to expect it Alejandro.
The point is to find something better or more durable without changing or radically changing the rules or how the game is played. Steel would force changes. Anything beyond some sort of waster would likely force major changes, Aluminium is the only blade metal that might not.

[Vebrand]

Gees guys,
I was just posting some neat toys I bought and musing. My what an odd place the archive is.

Truly.

Can I ask a dumb question? If you might think of switching over to these HPDE swords as a better or more durable simulator, why wouldn't you just go all the way to steel? I think I'm missing a point.

I know Brian; it is so much fun isn't it.

Baron A, why would we? 90% of SCA armor is not built for steel combat and I for one don't want to go that route. Personally I don't want 90% of the SCA fighting with steel.

Vebrand

[audax]

I know I spend way more than $40 a year on rattan and I'm just a puny little girl. I bet the big boys go through a hundred bucks in rattan per year.

If the HDPE waster lasted a couple years it would pay for itself. Problem is, as Brent pointed out, it probably does not meet the diameter requiements for our game.

I don't see a switch happening before the end of my lifetime, though, so I'll be ordering a bunch of rattan from Ice this payday.

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I don't see a switch happening before the end of my lifetime, though,

Your old but your not that old. Right now there isn't much pressure to find an alternative. Its kinda like Ethanol production in the US. As soon as the price of oil fell through the floor everyone pulled their money out of new ethanol development. At the moment I would guess the most likely people to address the problem will be those who have shaped tournament swords but find themselves having to practice with plain old ratan.
The only part of the problem that can't likely be solved except the feel of something else over rattan.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Why not try it as an experiment with experienced fighters. That way the delicate flowers don't have to worry about it.

Just opt out, Audax.

I've seen a piece of rattan, on it's first day of wearing tape snap in half virtually the first time it struck a helm.

By "snap in half" I mean it looked like someone took a saw to it, not shredded like rattan normally does.

Why? Who knows? Shit happens.

[Baron Eirik]

I've seen a piece of rattan, on it's first day of wearing tape snap in half virtually the first time it struck a helm.

By "snap in half" I mean it looked like someone took a saw to it, not shredded like rattan normally does.

Why? Who knows? Shit happens.

I've seen it many times. It's usually from some unseen flaw or weakness in the rattan. Sometimes you can see the crack or hole after the break. It's one of the risks of using a non-uniform, natural material.

[Christian H. Tobler]

Hi folks,

Bear in mind that these are not made from HDPE - they're polypropylene (PP).

I don't know how that material performs in cold weather though...

All the best,

Christian

[Saritor]

I admit to being a bit dogmatic - if I can't find a techinique in a treatise, I try not to use it.

Logos, you can arguably perform a flat snap (with a step, but you should be stepping anyway) using transitions in the Dardi school (I'm thinking Marozzo specifically, but...).

I've performed a falso cut to the back of someone's head on the pass in C&T as they rushed that, minus the step to the side, would've been largely the same motion that I'd use for a "wrap" in heavy.

But there are plenty of reasons for not seeing an SCA heavy wrap in WMA. Rather than lack of effectiveness, it's more in line with the fact that you've now come to grips and taken your sword offline to come around behind my entire body.

Hmm. That gives me some ideas to try that should be SCA legal...

[Giraut]

I don't like plastic swords.
I don't even like carbon-graphite as a shinai-material für Kendo, I prefer bamboo.
Fighting with plastic? Never. Or let's be perfect and use plastic-armor, plastic-shields, plastic-helmets. All modern material, all perfectly safe.
Let's put some electronic devices in it, as scoring machines.
Oh no, hey - plastic swords? No, not really, come on!

[Konstantin the Red]

How is using a plastic any aesthetically better than using a grass?

It's a climbing vine. Bamboo, that's a grass. The two grow in decidedly different eco-niches, too, right?

[Kilkenny]

Just try to go out on a rapier field and throw a flat snap and see the reaction you get. SCA heavy fighters throw with force and as many times as has been posted here about hitting solid and with true force do yoou think guys would take to something that would take that away from them? No you would still have the guys hitting solid and right now that would be a little too much.

Vebrand

Actually, just two weeks ago, it was perfectly illustrated why flat snaps with real swords don't work...

I was doing C&T with a fellow knight with few restrictions: i.e. he could hit me as hard and fast as he could in the head or legs. He was using a well tested and beefy backsword. I was using a broadsword that was a touch lighter. He threw a standard flat snap that I blocked with my buckler and snapped his sword right at the tang. Looking at the tang and quillons we surmised that my block twisted the blade out of the plane of the blow torquing it at the shoulders. I have been using blades exactly like this one for years under ardorous conditions and have never broken a sword. You are welcome to examine my C&T helm and schiavona hilt if you think we never hit hard....

So while everyone loves their flat snaps, they work great with sticks that bounce, bend, and move in all sorts of ways that steel doesn't, any blow that leaves you without a weapon isn't too practical.

I'm not belittling the skill, etc. of rattan fighting - most of you guys would probably wipe the floor with me - but sword fighting it's not.

So a sword broke and you confidently assign the cause of the break to the technique of the strike ?

That strains my credulity.

Steel swords can and do break. It's also entirely possible to use a snap technique with a steel sword effectively.

[Kilkenny]

How is using a plastic any aesthetically better than using a grass?

It's a climbing vine. Bamboo, that's a grass. The two grow in decidedly different eco-niches, too, right?

Actually, I believe it's a variety of climbing Palm. Grown in conjunction with rubber plantations. Seriously.

[Kilkenny]

You obviously missed the part where I said the block with the buckler twisted the blade. If the sword connects its intended target to crease and knock down the target, the dynamics are different.

Try throwing a flat snap at the head and having th point of a heater catch the flat of the blade and twist it enough to almost break your wrist.

You can believe what you want, but you will never convince me that swinging a grass club, no matter how skillfully, recreates fighting with an edged steel sword. I've had a bit of experince with both you know....

??? You've also got a stranglehold on conclusory reasoning here.

A sword broke in your presence. Because it was being swung with a particular technique not normally used with steel swords in your experience you have decided that it broke because of the technique.

I think that it is very safe to say that there is a great deal more to the equation.

And I'm sure I won't convince you of anything contrary to what you've already decided, but I really don't care

[Steve S.]

I believe an appropriate plastic substitute for rattan could be constructed. It would probably need to be an extrusion, with a hollow core and webbing.

[Steve Hick]

I wouldn't be too eager to really bonk somebody across the nervous system with one, though. HDPE tends to hit like a Mag-Lite. There was a bit of experimenting with rounds of the stuff as a potential rattan substitute -- it actually hit too hard. Sir Strykar (Storvik, Atlantia) then used it as his pell exercise implement, with occasional outings as a marshaling staff.

I was not posting this for the SCA, I was posting it for the WMA folks who might want something inexpensive for people starting out. But since you brought up "Hitting too hard" in regards to the SCA,It got my brain to churning.

After 20 or so years in the SCA and after having lived through one or two "OMGzzz we are running out of rattan what ever shall we do!!!" scares I have never understood why we never made the jump to HDPE. WE choose how hard we hit, not the material. We already have rules about excessive force. What is the difference in applying that rule to a pole weapon over a single handed weapon.Its just a training issue nothing more. Fencers use steel swords and they seem to be able to control themselves just fine. I think us dumb heavies can show that level of control with a sword shaped piece of plastic and not loose that joie de guerre that we get from taking and receiving mighty blows.

HDPE also seems to have the same safety benefits that we attribute to rattan,namely it is slightly flexible and it wont splinter. Is a baton made out of HDPE going to hit harder than the 3 inch in cross section fish bats that some people fight with? I tend to doubt it. It is all in how we apply force with a given tool, not the tool itself.

This is just some food for thought.I am not trying to lead a quixotic quest to get the rules to change. The SCA uses rattan and as it was so shall it ever be...

Well having run the test, and being a WMA guy these days, and having looked at the nylon wasters made by the Swedes, likely a lot like the ones from Britian -- it is that the material is less forgiving and it is the shape. In the old days, the experiment was being done with 1.5 inch rod, the wasters I saw in Dijon were rectangular in cross sectiion, and likely 1 inch at the edge. I would not like to receive what passes for a normal blow these days within the SCA with the nylon wasters without some protection for beyond elbows and knees, forearms as well, and I am pretty robust. However, the Swedes seem to be able to bout without serious injury, it is the context and the person using it. However, it would be that "transition phase" that would be the problem. But hey, it's your SCA.

Steve

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Anyone done any sparing with these to see how hard they hit?