Rules, Conventions, and Groin Targeting

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:31 am

I am with Kilkenny, completely. Somewhere in the 80's the part in our handbook disappeared that said the neck and groin were non legal targets that you took any shot to, probably because it was ambiguous.

Now we have cup shooters who target little else in a melee. I try to find them when I can.

In singles, I don't fight people who will target me there. If I get hit there in a suspicious way, I ask if it was an intentional shot. If it was, I stop fighting that person, right then and there.

In our very safe sport, the only place I feel I can easily be seriously hurt is with a strong cup shot, and I don't want to fight people who will hit me there on purpose.

I will never understand why I have to armour areas like my shield elbow, but there is no "foul" for hitting me in the cup.

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:53 am

http://www.nuttybuddy.com/player.html

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:11 pm

Eirik wrote:I find this very interesting.

Let me pose this question, if I may, to those for whom cupshots are not exactly legal:

Do we call accidental shin shots? Or accidental hand shots?

... and yet we call accidental cupshots, even though they are not legal target areas. Hmmmm....

In any event, I've gotten to fight the Middle Kingdom at Border Raids using their fighting conventions, which permited the groin as a legal target. I expected to receive groin shots, and did. One learns to defend while in Rome, doing as the Romans .

Now, whether or not YOU target the groin when playing "crotch-legal".... well, now, is that a question of honor?

Do you not target the groin because it is illegal, or because your honor does not permit it?

I know, for me, my honor does not permit it. I am old school SCA and still live by the old adage "the primary objective is nobody gets hurt."
I kind of like to add the corrollary: make it fun for everyone.

Just my copper arm ring's worth....

I think there's confusion. The target area has been a legal one for a couple of decades now, at the Society level and AFAIK at all kingdom levels (with a nod to West Kingdom *custom* against it).

So there isn't any discontinuity about taking shots to one illegal area but not to another - like shin or hand.

It's also not a matter of honor as to legal or not, since it's legal

Again, my choice is not to target there but to acknowledge blows I receive there that are good. I have called a cup shot light, in Crown, when the other guy was challenging my honor as a way of misdirecting attention from the new dent in his helm and the thrust he claimed had been to my belly was, in fact to the cup and Light. It wasn't a happy time

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:13 pm

I don't try to hit people in the cup because I feel it is unsportsmanlike and I don't want others to hit me in the cup as it can hurt quite a lot so it is kind of an unwritten rule in most places, do unto others....

I do however expect an opponent to take the shot if I accidentally strike their private bits just as I take it when they do the same. It is not an illegal target area because like all other parts of the body it can be armored and protected from a stout blow. It is a kill.

Hrolfr · Post by **Hrolfr** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:20 pm

Balin50 wrote:
Maeryk wrote:
Balin50 wrote:Legal target if it is open i will try to hit it.

Balin

So is your armpit. Most of us avoid doing that to people we like, because we want them to be able to drink a beer later.

We reap what we sow. Hitting people in the junk intentionally is a dick move, period.

Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

Block your groin if it hurts when you get hit in the groin your armor is not working. I mean would you continue to wear a helmet that hurt when you got hit in it?

Balin

I coulda guessed this would go to CA :roll:

Sir, the point is
If you intentionally target the family jewels with normal calibration most people I know would consider you a dick.

There is a difference accidentally hitting someone there and actively seeking to whack someone in the harbles.

Just sayin'

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:20 pm

It's an illegal target area in some places. It's NOT invulnerable. There's a subtle difference.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:24 pm

Well, maybe you could try to be a better example for them? Or does one group doing something you don't like justify you doing something others don't like?

Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:29 pm

Balin50 wrote:
Maeryk wrote:
Balin50 wrote:Legal target if it is open i will try to hit it.

Balin

So is your armpit. Most of us avoid doing that to people we like, because we want them to be able to drink a beer later.

We reap what we sow. Hitting people in the junk intentionally is a dick move, period.

Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

Balin

That's about the size of it.

If you have the skill to hit them in the junk, you have the skill to hit them in the thigh. Take the high road, and take the thigh shot.

Else you may just discover their buddy is a 400 pound psycho spear guy who can also target cups, and pick you up and throw you over the haybales with a cup shot. Remember, "it's legal" and "it's at normal thrust calibration" so your whining will be ignored as you crawl off the field.

It's not about whether it's "legal" or not, it's about whether it's PROPER or not.

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:34 pm

Hrolfr wrote:
Balin50 wrote:
Maeryk wrote:
Balin50 wrote:Legal target if it is open i will try to hit it.

Balin

So is your armpit. Most of us avoid doing that to people we like, because we want them to be able to drink a beer later.

We reap what we sow. Hitting people in the junk intentionally is a dick move, period.

Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

Block your groin if it hurts when you get hit in the groin your armor is not working. I mean would you continue to wear a helmet that hurt when you got hit in it?

Balin

I coulda guessed this would go to CA

Sir, the point is
If you intentionally target the family jewels with normal calibration most people I know would consider you a dick.

There is a difference accidentally hitting someone there and actively seeking to whack someone in the harbles.

Just sayin'

Don't hang them out. I never said that i hunt groins i said if it was open i would take the shot if however i had a choice between the groin and say their head i would hit them in the helm.

Balin

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:36 pm

Dilan wrote:Well, maybe you could try to be a better example for them? Or does one group doing something you don't like justify you doing something others don't like?

Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

i did not intend to try to justify anything i simply said it was interesting.

Balin

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:41 pm

That's about the size of it.

If you have the skill to hit them in the junk, you have the skill to hit them in the thigh. Take the high road, and take the thigh shot.

Else you may just discover their buddy is a 400 pound psycho spear guy who can also target cups, and pick you up and throw you over the haybales with a cup shot. Remember, "it's legal" and "it's at normal thrust calibration" so your whining will be ignored as you crawl off the field.

It's not about whether it's "legal" or not, it's about whether it's PROPER or not.[/quote]

Well if i have a choice between 2 killing shots i will not take the groin. Kill vs a wound... As to the 400lb cup hunter eh better bring his A game cause i protect my junk. I have never complained that a legal shot was to hard. Thanks for the assumption though.

Balin

Matthew Richardson · Post by **Matthew Richardson** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:03 pm

The groin is a legal target in Atenveldt, as is everything above the knees and wrists.

If you are being a douchebag, oops, "having a moment of extremely heavy calibration" and yer cup is open, I will hit you there, just to see what happens. I have had mixed results...

During normal tourney or melee fighting, I try not to intentionally gack someone in the nads.

Mathghamhain,
who got hit in the nads last night at practice and did not have any issues. I missed a block and stepped into my opponent's shot.

Proxus · Post by **Proxus** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:30 pm

I have found previously that while in the press on the shield wall in a war scenario that often times a cup shot was all that was open. Now in those situations yes I WILL and do take the shot. A thigh is not a killing blow, and a legged fighter is still a threat to the shield wall. At the same time however, I will always ensure that I tap the cup and make eye contact with someone in order to not hurt someone there ever. Being a lefty on the wall I found that people would often not expect my sword to come out that side of the scutum. I expect to get hit there. I have always been of the mindset it is a legal target and I had better protect it if I want to make it through the fight. I teach my new fighters to protect thiers and I let them know about the custom of bad form, but remind them it is a legal target and to take shots there. I have never deliberately gone for a shot there in one on one fighting and have always viewed tourney fighting as pas de plaisance, not fights to the death and that would be discourteous in this situation. At war I will use all legal means to give "death" to my enemies, however I remember at all times to be safe and prevent injury while doing so which I think is the important part of the distinction and do not feel I am "being the dick" as others have so eloquently put it.

Now personally I think that this whole issue could be put to bed with two changes either of which are simple enough to make.

1. Make it an illegal target so that when struck by accident the "oh noes" guilt we all feel about hard shots there will still exist however the fighter will not "HAVE" to retire from the field and if is still able to continue may do so. Anyone who does wind up targeting the cup will at that point be in the wrong and just as with excessive steps could be taken by the fighters and marshallate to counter the situation as deemed appropriate.

2. Require that we stop using the plastic athletic baseball cups for protection and go for something better. (I wear one and KNOW it isn't good enough protection which is why I try not to leave it open) Olympic style boxing cups that slide on are quite nice. The one opportunity I wore one and took a shot there felt nothing but pressure and suprise and was just fine. The couple of times I have been hit while wearing the baseball style cups I have always at least had my breath taken away. Unless I was being tapped on the line.

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:35 pm

I think it's a question of honor rather than safety. Sort of a "gentleman's agreement". I also think it's fine to hit people as hard as "they want" in the armpit, and would strongly suggest it for people who are having trouble with calibration.

The neck is kind of in between... certainly aiming a thrust UNDER someones' helm (which is theoretically possible) is not cool... side of the neck.. when is it really open that the helmet isn't? I don't think I've ever aimed at the neck, although I throw some shots that are occasionally quite close and might end up there.

I take extremely light to the cup.

I think it's poor behavior to "tap" someone's cup with a spear and then say "I was just being nice"... but you bet I'll take it. If you are doing that because you can't get me to take a shot anywhere else, I would much prefer a discussion about it.

As for how do you discern intention... well if the response is "it's a legal target" then I have a pretty good idea. Also, repeated blows (denying intention) are a sign that something is wrong... either in intent or targeting skill.

That all being said - my first assumption (in single combat) when I get hit in the groin is that it's my own fault. In a war it's a little different, since the attacks can come from so many different angles.

Thorstenn · Post by **Thorstenn** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:38 pm

There are 3 places I will not target on my opponent.

1. Cup
2. Neck
3. Collarbone

This I teach my squires as well. If I cannot best my opponent without targeting these 3 spots they are no longer worth my time for we are simply not playing the same game.

Thor.

Eirik · Post by **Eirik** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Actually, in Meridies, it has been considered an unchivalrous blow since I first started playing back in the mid eighties, and, as such, one that is not to be struck, regardless of legality. I call them, and always have. But please don't target me there, or my wife will kill you in your sleep....

To be clear, the rule from the Meridian handbook states:

"10. No blows may be deliberately struck at or below the knee or wrist (or one inch above the joint). Blows to those areas are not counted. Fighters who repeatedly strike such blows purposely or through bad technique are subject to censure. Blows should not be thrown to the neck, the elbows, or the groin; however, blows to those areas are to be counted."

But my question still stands... if it is not a legal target area where you play... what's the difference between calling a cupshot and a shin shot? (Semantics aside, assume an area that is not to be targeted is an illegal target area regardless of it being impervious to mildew and rot

)

If it's not a question of honor... why are you not targeting it?

Speaking just for me, there are some things that are perfectly legal, but not necessarily honorable, so the legality is a moot point. I stress, that is speaking just for me.

Kilkenny wrote:I think there's confusion. The target area has been a legal one for a couple of decades now, at the Society level and AFAIK at all kingdom levels (with a nod to West Kingdom *custom* against it).

So there isn't any discontinuity about taking shots to one illegal area but not to another - like shin or hand.

It's also not a matter of honor as to legal or not, since it's legal

Again, my choice is not to target there but to acknowledge blows I receive there that are good. I have called a cup shot light, in Crown, when the other guy was challenging my honor as a way of misdirecting attention from the new dent in his helm and the thrust he claimed had been to my belly was, in fact to the cup and Light. It wasn't a happy time

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Thorstenn wrote:There are 3 places I will not target on my opponent.

1. Cup
2. Neck
3. Collarbone

This I teach my squires as well. If I cannot best my opponent without targeting these 3 spots they are no longer worth my time for we are simply not playing the same game.

Thor.

Wait if you can't beat them without those shots they are not worth your time?

Balin

Cisco · Post by **Cisco** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:37 pm

Balin50 wrote:Wait if you can't beat them without those shots they are not worth your time?

Balin

I think what his grace is suggesting is that if he has to resort to those target areas he'd rather not fight.

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:39 pm

Balin50 wrote:
Thorstenn wrote:3 places I will not target on my opponent.

1. Cup
2. Neck
3. Collarbone

Wait if you can't beat them without those shots they are not worth your time?

Nope, if I can't beat them without those shots I need to improve myself until I can. Or, to put it another way, If I can't beat them without those shots I'm not worth their time :wink:

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:42 pm

K that makes more sense

Eirik · Post by **Eirik** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:49 pm

Malcolm_Mor wrote:
Eirik wrote:
Do you not target the groin because it is illegal, or because your honor does not permit it?

My honor does not permit it. And I will happily offer you a drink, my lord, and you are at Pennsic, to demonstrate my sorrow that such things happen at Border Raids. My household has cousins down in your neck of the woods, and several of your Kingdom have camped with us; I enjoy Border Raids as I am Southern Born, appreciate that ya'll just love a good whomping session, and hold your Kingdom in the highest esteem.

Look me up in X-11 if you are there.

Unfortunately, it does not look as though I'll make Pennsic this year. But I will find you and we can share a nice adult beverage and swap war stories

. I harbor no ill will to my northern brothers; l enjoy fighting with different conventions on occaision! I was especially fond of the 6' poles :twisted:

I hail from Loch An Fhraioch, should your travels ever take you this far south. If not, Gulf Wars? Border Raids?

Larmer · Post by **Larmer** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:57 pm

olaf haraldson wrote:
hrolf wrote:crotch and armpits are really good ways of making the very thick fighter take shots, though.

Nah, not the crotch... stick your spear right in the hollow of the ilium and watch them fold up.

My accidently delivered cup shots come while fighting spear in tight melees (castle battles are classic). Shield men often leave their bellies open ideal for a low spear shot. I aim for the thigh or the belly. I get more that the occasional cup (they move, spear gets pushed, curve of the body moves it). It has been my observation that I do more hurt to my noble cousins hitting them in the soft under belly where is often no armour than in the well protected cup. Thing is if I throw a light shot aiming for the belly and it hits the leg it is ignored. Puts me in a bit of a bind as how hard to throw.

Cheers,

Richard, sometimes called Dicken but rarely a Dick

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:15 pm

Sir Mathghamhain MacAlpin wrote:The groin is a legal target in Atenveldt, as is everything above the knees and wrists.

If you are being a douchebag, oops, "having a moment of extremely heavy calibration" and yer cup is open, I will hit you there, just to see what happens. I have had mixed results...

During normal tourney or melee fighting, I try not to intentionally gack someone in the nads.

Mathghamhain,
who got hit in the nads last night at practice and did not have any issues. I missed a block and stepped into my opponent's shot.

I can testify to that one. I remember my first crown list. You threw a slot when I was on my knees and you slowed it down and just barely tapped on my cup. I said "I'm sorry but you do have to strike me there that's not a good shot" and so you did exactly the same thing a second time again without any major impact and so I was compelled to take the shot without any blunt trauma to my sack. I never thanked you for that so in hindsight... Thank you. :wink:

spearweasel · Post by **spearweasel** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:23 pm

It's legal here, but it's no way to make new friends. I shoot spear a lot, and aim at the belly - never at the cup. The ample bellies and rotund thighs of many SCAdians form a shot trap leading straight to the cup though, so it happens.

If I hit you solid in the cup, it wasn't deliberate - count on that. I expect you to take it as a valid hit however, and react appropriately (take a death, reset for another pass, whatever).

If I hit you solid in the cup, I'm not going to attack you again without first giving you a chance to recover, get clear, or show a thumbs-up and continue.

It is nearly always worth it not not be a dick.

Hartmann · Post by **Hartmann** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:23 pm

Balin50 wrote:[Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

Yup.

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:28 pm

Hartmann wrote:
Balin50 wrote:[Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

Yup.

Are you agreeing with the interesting part? Or the im a dick part?

Balin

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:29 pm

Hartmann wrote:
Balin50 wrote:[Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

Yup.

Wait what? Why?

Hartmann · Post by **Hartmann** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:35 pm

I have a bigger problem with a guy targeting my groin than a guy trying to shoot an arrow at me, definitly.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:35 pm

Johno wrote:
Hartmann wrote:
Balin50 wrote:[Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

Yup.

Wait what? Why?

Because people who hit people in the groin are dicks. As are people who hit people in the armpit as a general course of fighting. As are people who do that stupid "behidn the back through the legs" thrust thing to people they don't know. There are a lot of dickish things that are legal. Doesn't make em any less dickish.

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:39 pm

Hartmann wrote:I have a bigger problem with a guy targeting my groin than a guy trying to shoot an arrow at me, definitly.

Why?

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:40 pm

Maeryk wrote:
Johno wrote:
Hartmann wrote:
Balin50 wrote:[Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

Yup.

Wait what? Why?

Because people who hit people in the groin are dicks. As are people who hit people in the armpit as a general course of fighting. As are people who do that stupid "behidn the back through the legs" thrust thing to people they don't know. There are a lot of dickish things that are legal. Doesn't make em any less dickish.

Ya there are people that shoot missile weapons too.

Balin
Aten 101
Fighters not Targets

see what i did there?

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:40 pm

Balin50 wrote:
Thorstenn wrote:There are 3 places I will not target on my opponent.

1. Cup
2. Neck
3. Collarbone

This I teach my squires as well. If I cannot best my opponent without targeting these 3 spots they are no longer worth my time for we are simply not playing the same game.

Thor.

Wait if you can't beat them without those shots they are not worth your time?

Balin

Balin, what do you suppose is the significance of those particular targets ?

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:41 pm

Yeah the bastards! How dare they!

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:41 pm

Not sure i understand your question.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:42 pm

Balin50 wrote:
Maeryk wrote:
Johno wrote:
Hartmann wrote:
Balin50 wrote:[Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

Yup.

Wait what? Why?

Because people who hit people in the groin are dicks. As are people who hit people in the armpit as a general course of fighting. As are people who do that stupid "behidn the back through the legs" thrust thing to people they don't know. There are a lot of dickish things that are legal. Doesn't make em any less dickish.

Ya there are people that shoot missile weapons too.

Balin
Aten 101
Fighters not Targets

see what i did there?

yup. You made a strawman. Nice job, though the legs could use some more stuffing.

You can consider the folks who shoot arrows dicks all you want. I don't. You didn't ask WHY people don't consider archers dicks, you asked why people considered YOU a dick for targeting groins.

learn to ask the right question.